Study: Maybe college IS for more people than we thought

[Zelig]

Nice to see some research on this. To me it's a big "duh"... WTH are most 19 year olds doing when college isn't even on the horizon?

Making babies.

 

[Narz]

The conventional wisdom, echoed sometimes in here and many times in current policy circles, is that "college isn't for everyone"

Really? Most young people feel extremely pressured into going to college. It's pretty much collectively seen as the only game in town, the only way to avoid 'being a loser'. My best friend from college (who dropped out) had his mother stop speaking to him after he quit school. He committed suicide a couple of years later. Another statistic in favor of college? I'm not so sure.

Nice to see some research on this. To me it's a big "duh"... WTH are most 19 year olds doing when college isn't even on the horizon? Not. Much.

Most of them. If you've got nothing better to do, goto college, it will buy you time where people won't judge you for being a bum, if your parents are rich you can even stay in the incubator for decades (or even become a professor & never leave).

If college were free or anyone could get 100% scholarships I'd say go for it but to say every kid should just automatically get on the 'normal person' conveyer belt & rack up debt that will come out of their paycheck for a decade or more, I'm not so sure thats responsible.

There's a huge, huge social stigma against not going to college so yeah, for the average person who aspires to work for someone else, be a normal middle class citizen & feel the selfesteem that comes from that should go. If you have a specific path in mind goto trade school or find someone to model. Finding people to learn from who run businesses is probably going to be more useful than learning from a business professor who likely has never ran a business in his life.

Also, before you sign up consider the drop out rate, make sure you can handle & want to handle 4-years of college because dropping out will get you huge stigma & judgement from family/friends/society. Kind of like marriage, if it works, great, if it doesn't you're worse off psychologically than if you'd never done it.

The stigma that either you goto college or become a bum/drug-dealer/go join the army/circus/etc. annoys me.

Steve Jobs had the right idea, just sneak into the classes you want & absorb material (not with the mind to ace the test or impress your professor but to learn what you believe will be applicable to your life).

Not to mention there are huge amounts of college material available for free online, college is just to make connections & support.

Throwing around stats about how college grads do better doesn't necessarily mean that college is the only way, simply that its the only way presented & those who don't attend or can't handle it often fall by the wayside in our society.

 

[Zack]

Not everyone is Steve Jobs.

 

[Narz]

Not everyone is Steve Jobs.

Sure but not everyone who doesn't follow the traditional path is necessarily following the road to ruin either. The shaming by elders & peers is likely a large part of the problem for those who, for whatever reason, are not able or not inclined to get a degree.

 

[downtown]

Okay, I have read the article.

There are still some severe logical problems with the reasoning behind the article and the summary posted in this thread. For one, college dropouts are a really diverse bunch. It may include people like Mark Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs. They are a tiny minority, yet they are kind of people who singlehandedly disprove the entire premise that college dropouts are misfits bound for unemployment. Statistical misrepresentation is statistical misrepresentation - and colleges often teach people to be good at it. Hence, saying "you shouldn't drop out because college dropouts' unemployment stands at 7.8%" is utter bullcrap and a logical fallacy, since it is perfectly possible to drop out because you have carved out a path for yourself that is superior to completing college.

Enrolling to a college is a good gateway for social connections. It is a social-gathering site for people from all walks of life. However, getting the degree shouldn't be the goal in itself. If college outlives its usefulness for you, it is best to drop out.

Yeah, I don't know how useful those examples are, you know? Yes, if you are smart enough to gain original admission to Harvard, are white, male, wealthy, and born into the advantageous scenarios that Gates and Zuckerberg were, yes, I'm sure your milage will vary if you drop out of college...but those caveats would apply to anything.

I don't see what the fallacy is here by saying "if you look at these stats, all other variables being equal, graduating from college is better than dropping out of college". That's like saying, "Hey, Dave Thomas dropped out of high school and became a wildly successful businessman, so don't worry about not getting that GED if you have a really great plan."

Of course you can still be successful if you don't get a college degree. The study, and so many other ones, merely say that it's way better if you do. Given how wildly important that credential is, I'd say anybody who is going to pay the money and spend the time going to college should absolutely make getting that piece of paper a priority.

Really? Most young people feel extremely pressured into going to college. It's pretty much collectively seen as the only game in town, the only way to avoid 'being a loser'.

I think that TOTALLY depends on where you live. I'm sure most of OT would probably agree with this, since among affluent, white-collar America, it IS seen as basically the only game in town...but that isn't all of America. Barely 25% of people where I live have a college degree, and less than half of the students from my local high school go to four year institutions. I'm sure I wouldn't have to drive very far in my county to find numbers that are even lower.

Less than half of all US high schoolers in the class of 2014 enrolled in four-year colleges after graduation. About a third didn't enroll in anything at all.

What you're describing was also my experience growing up, and I do not doubt there are significant social pressures pushing kids from some communities towards going to school, but I'm not sure I'd say that's a uniform experience everywhere.

Also, before you sign up consider the drop out rate, make sure you can handle & want to handle 4-years of college because dropping out will get you huge stigma & judgement from family/friends/society. Kind of like marriage, if it works, great, if it doesn't you're worse off psychologically than if you'd never done it.

Worse off psychologically? Again, I guess that depends on your network. If you're the only person from your community or social network who doesn't finish, sure, I bet that would sting. I'm not sure research supports the idea that that phenomenon is standardized though. And in terms of future earnings or employability though, a college dropout is *still* better off than somebody who never went to college.

Not to mention there are huge amounts of college material available for free online, college is just to make connections & support.

Well, that and the credential.

Throwing around stats about how college grads do better doesn't necessarily mean that college is the only way, simply that its the only way presented & those who don't attend or can't handle it often fall by the wayside in our society.

It is absolutely not the only way. There aren't many ways left that don't require *any* kind of post-secondary training or certifications though.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Most of us aren't the anecdotal exceptions like Jobs or Zuckerberg. Unless you live at home or continue to hang with HS friends, college will broaden your education and improve your understanding of the larger world when compared to those who don't go to college. Most people who don't go to college and/or do not engage in some similar broadening experience (like the military) lack a depth of perspective and intellectual experience typically gained through a college experience. That can make life much more difficult.

 

[BvBPL]

The education is supposed to teach you those essential skills. The degree itself indeed only serves to distinguish. Those skills could be acquired elsewhere, maybe even more efficiently.

Well sure there may well be other means to learn those skills, but a degree is the easiest way to demonstrate mastery of those skills to perspective employers. Somebody could be the best damn electrical engineer in the hiring pool, but unless he has a BS in the field he will have a hard time demonstrating that specialized competency to a hiring manager in a manner that is efficient for both parties.

 

[Tahuti]

Most of us aren't the anecdotal exceptions like Jobs or Zuckerberg. Unless you live at home or continue to hang with HS friends, college will broaden your education and improve your understanding of the larger world when compared to those who don't go to college. Most people who don't go to college and/or do not engage in some similar broadening experience (like the military) lack a depth of perspective and intellectual experience typically gained through a college experience. That can make life much more difficult.

There are however people who have nevertheless managed to find jobs that otherwise require a degree without actually having one. People like Gates are extreme exceptions. However, that isn't to say there aren't people who may not be that succesful, but still have access to the same opportunities as college grads.

Although frankly, I am probably biased since I am myself a dropout, as I managed to found a graduate level job before completing college.

Of course you can still be successful if you don't get a college degree. The study, and so many other ones, merely say that it's way better if you do. Given how wildly important that credential is, I'd say anybody who is going to pay the money and spend the time going to college should absolutely make getting that piece of paper a priority.

Well, to be honest, the US higher education system is superior to that of the Netherlands in part because US universities are more accomodating to the thought that students may prefer dropping out to do something else, often using knowledge obtained in college. In other words, in the US, you go to college to obtain knowledge. in the Netherlands, you go to college to get a paper.

In fact, if you don't complete all freshman courses within 2 years, you will be barred from the major on that university for 3 years.

 

[Kozmos]

Well sure there may well be other means to learn those skills, but a degree is the easiest way to demonstrate mastery of those skills to perspective employers. Somebody could be the best damn electrical engineer in the hiring pool, but unless he has a BS in the field he will have a hard time demonstrating that specialized competency to a hiring manager in a manner that is efficient for both parties.

I'm not so sure, some STEM fields are easily testable. Why employers sometimes choose to skip that is beyond me. To me, a degree is nothing more than proof you can show up on time for certain events with a little work beforehand. That for some jobs is all it takes though.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't about how the US, but in the UK, professions like engineering require professional accreditation, and a post-secondary course is by far the easiest way to acquire that certification, and sometimes the only way. It's about a legal entitlement to practice a set of skills, as much as signalling that you possess them.

 

[aelf]

There are still some severe logical problems with the reasoning behind the article and the summary posted in this thread. For one, college dropouts are a really diverse bunch. It may include people like Mark Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs. They are a tiny minority, yet they are kind of people who singlehandedly disprove the entire premise that college dropouts are misfits bound for unemployment. Statistical misrepresentation is statistical misrepresentation - and colleges often teach people to be good at it. Hence, saying "you shouldn't drop out because college dropouts' unemployment stands at 7.8%" is utter bullcrap and a logical fallacy, since it is perfectly possible to drop out because you have carved out a path for yourself that is superior to completing college.

It's funny that you mention statistics, because I can't make any statistical sense out of this argument.

 

[uppi]

Well sure there may well be other means to learn those skills, but a degree is the easiest way to demonstrate mastery of those skills to perspective employers. Somebody could be the best damn electrical engineer in the hiring pool, but unless he has a BS in the field he will have a hard time demonstrating that specialized competency to a hiring manager in a manner that is efficient for both parties.

That was my point: It is the piece of paper that matters, not your skills.

The piece of paper is often not even there to be proof of skills, but rather proof that you are able to acquire skills in a certain amount of time. These can be totally unrelated, but the hope is that you are able to quickly learn the relevant skills.

 

[Zelig]

The piece of paper is often not even there to be proof of skills, but rather proof that you are able to acquire skills in a certain amount of time. These can be totally unrelated, but the hope is that you are able to quickly learn the relevant skills.

What? How is it that at all? You can easily collect all the skills in whatever time frame you like before you sign up for a program and write the necessary exams.

 

[uppi]

What? How is it that at all? You can easily collect all the skills in whatever time frame you like before you sign up for a program and write the necessary exams.

Sure, but that time will show up in the CV somewhere. And if it does not, that is even better.

 

[dutchfire]

Well, to be honest, the US higher education system is superior to that of the Netherlands

No, it's not.

Fluctuations within both education systems are way way larger than the difference between the two.

 

[downtown]

Well, to be honest, the US higher education system is superior to that of the Netherlands in part because US universities are more accomodating to the thought that students may prefer dropping out to do something else, often using knowledge obtained in college. In other words, in the US, you go to college to obtain knowledge. in the Netherlands, you go to college to get a paper.

In fact, if you don't complete all freshman courses within 2 years, you will be barred from the major on that university for 3 years.

I don't really know how to respond to this, with me not knowing anything about universities in the Netherlands, but I doubt there's much truth to this. How is a university accommodating to a dropout? Given that Americans borrow so much money to attend school, and still have to pay it back if they don't graduate, I'd say there is a massive incentive to stay in school. The proliferation of a for-profit university system would seem to support that the credential is super important as well.

 

[Hygro]

I don't really know how to respond to this, with me not knowing anything about universities in the Netherlands, but I doubt there's much truth to this. How is a university accommodating to a dropout? Given that Americans borrow so much money to attend school, and still have to pay it back if they don't graduate, I'd say there is a massive incentive to stay in school. The proliferation of a for-profit university system would seem to support that the credential is super important as well.

My school accommodates me dropping out and returning pretty liberally, but yes the debt part is pretty significant.

As dutchfire explained to me before, in NL they kind of flip the script. Here, admissions is a competitive process but once you're in you're in. There, admissions is a non-competitive process but if you can't hack it from the get-go, you're out.

I think that's pretty significant.

 

[Borachio]

I don't about how the US, but in the UK, professions like engineering require professional accreditation, and a post-secondary course is by far the easiest way to acquire that certification, and sometimes the only way. It's about a legal entitlement to practice a set of skills, as much as signalling that you possess them.

I'm not sure that that's exactly it. I can't see having zero engineering qualifications is any bar to you setting up an engineering works and going directly into manufacturing. Your chances of success aren't good, but I don't believe certification gives you a legal entitlement to practice a set of skills, or make you, in itself, more likely to succeed. What it does do, I think, is persuade a potential employer, or financial backer, that you more likely do have a relevant set of skills.

But maybe I misunderstand what you mean by legal entitlement. Or maybe my understanding of what an engineer is, is faulty.

 

[Traitorfish]

A lot of engineering work has to be signed off on by a certified engineer (usually two) before it can be carried out. Anything where there's a plausible risk to the public, like buildings, large machines or power systems.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I'm not sure that that's exactly it. I can't see having zero engineering qualifications is any bar to you setting up an engineering works and going directly into manufacturing. Your chances of success aren't good, but I don't believe certification gives you a legal entitlement to practice a set of skills, or make you, in itself, more likely to succeed. What it does do, I think, is persuade a potential employer, or financial backer, that you more likely do have a relevant set of skills.

But maybe I misunderstand what you mean by legal entitlement. Or maybe my understanding of what an engineer is, is faulty.

Traitorfish is entirely correct here. Yeah, you can set up any kind of company you wish without personally having something like a PE license (professional engineer or whatever the UK equivalent is) but you do have to employ PE's to sign off on everything you do or build. You don't have that and you can't legally do anything with your business.

Different disciplines have different practices but they all amount to the same thing. Construction/architecture firms tend to require that every engineer have a PE license. Aerospace firms only require it for a select few in upper management. But either way, at some point before a nail meets a board or a rivet plunges into sheet metal, someone with a license has signed off on the job. It's legally required.

I believe much the same goes for trades like plumbing, electricians and so forth.