Sweeslamistan

[aelf]

Ahh, you think my initial question was judgemental?

Can you quote me the parts that you think were out of order? It was a very simple question... If anyone's getting insulted over what I asked, it's on them, not me.

It's this:

Your plan.. let's see it.

That sounds sassy at best and indicates that you're responding because you took offense.

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm not sure I understand the original question. What's meant by "plan"? A loose sketch? A point-by-point walkthrough? It seems to be constructed so that any answer Jernsida could be reasonably expected to give turns out to be insufficient. Reads as setting the goal posts on wheels, y'know?

 

[Yeekim]

The link at the end of this post leads to an article that contains an image gallery. I must warn you - the images are disturbing. I specifically checked forum rules, to see if I ain't breaking them by posting this, but it seems I'm not. At least I hope so.

They are of an apartment that was, for a very long time, a place of residence of a mentally disturbed lonely old woman and a pack of inbred dogs she loved very much. So much, that he wouldn't let them out for fear of losing them, and wouldn't let anybody in either. You have been warned.

It took a court order to break in, get her to hospital and the dogs to refuge.

It is really not my intention to compare immigrants to dogs or Sweden to deranged elderly, but somehow I was reminded of this story reading the thread, as it does show that even best intentions and great amount of love aren't always enough - one needs to consider one's capabilities and one needs to have a plan.

To think of it, dogs do have few important things in common with immigrants:
- both can be awesome;
- both require proper care and attention;
- lacking that, both will suffer and become a problem.

I believe Sweden is paying quite a lot of care and attention, but considering facts brought in this thread, they might be dangerously stretching their resources...

http://publik.delfi.ee/news/kino/tv...korteri-perenaine-viidi-haiglasse?id=69720865

 

[aelf]

That's exactly my view on parenting. And yet most people, some of whom are asking for some kind of tangible plan from Sweden before they are willing to praise the country's efforts, are offended by the suggestion of a parenting license. Again, like creative destruction - the selective and self-serving application of beliefs.

 

[Angst]

Number of rapes per 100 k inhabitants has increased in Sweden from 25 in 2003 to 66 in 2012.

Are you trolling or unaware of another potential (and obvious) implication of such a dramatic change in rape statistics, especially in a country as progressively feminist as Sweden?

(haven't read the thread)

edit ive now read parts of the thread and realize now you are serious. wow.

 

[Tee Kay]

If I didn't know better I'd think Domen is a racial theorist who time-travelled from the 19th century and got stranded here.

Especially with his habit of throwing wikipedia links into his posts, not matter how appropriate. It's like he's trying to familiarise with his new era, poor guy.

 

[Domen]

Maybe instead of speculating that women are reporting more rapes because of their more feminist attitude, you should also check statistics which say who commits majority of rapes. And these say that majority of rapes are commited by immigrants and their descendants. Especially aggravated rapes.

And this proportion of native crime to immigrant & their descendants crime rates has nothing to do with feminism.

I'd think Domen is a racial theorist who time-travelled from the 19th century

Book & study "The Color of Crime" were published in 1998 and 2005, not in the 19th century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Color_of_Crime

http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.html

And this one is from 2012 - "The Color of Justice: Race, Ethnicity, and Crime in America":

http://www.cengagebrain.com.mx/content/9781133679424.pdf

 

[Angst]

Maybe instead of speculating that women are reporting more rapes because of their more feminist attitude, you should also check statistics which say who commits majority of rapes. And these say that majority of rapes are commited by immigrants and their descendants. Especially aggravated rapes.

And this proportion of native crime to immigrant & their descendants crime rates has nothing to do with feminism.

This would be a very valid point in its simplistic worldview if Sweden scored better rape stats than the Arab-infested Middle East. It is still a point, but very distinctly less so.

But sure.

I want to dwell on another thing. Statistics, "culture" and racism. For a bit.

This is important; your plethora of inthread distinctions between your prejudice towards race or culture doesn't matter much. The Danish racism paragraph tries to handle this exact problem: it is not allowed to act with prejudice towards neither race nor nation. Race and culture are of similar enough sizes to be arbitrary ethnicities you can claim issue with.

Remember that very few people identify with racism. This is because racism has inherent connections with vice or stupidity or evil or what have you. Rather, propagators of racism utilize a rhethoric of having an issue with "culture" instead. That would have helped the British back when they were trying to deal with the Irish "race".

Statistics can be racist too. No, seriously. Racism is negative prejudice against certain select ethnic groups. Supporting a racist view with a statistic which supports that racist view doesn't make it less racist. It just means it's somewhat founded. This Raping Arab, if it is a thing, is still a racist concept.

I want to underline that this means that more people are racist than they generally want to admit. This is because of racism's rightful demonization. But the demonization works against the problem in a very peculiar way, in that it supports noncomplex constructs of societies, replacing the scapegoat of "race" with the scapegoat of "culture" and calling it a day. I am one of the few people who admit to having racist views myself, but try to handle them in constructively, solving social issues or trying to reform my own attitude. It's imo a much more productive way to tackle race problems than to demonize the strange, the odd-colored, the poor.

 

[Farm Boy]

Angst, if the raping imigrant actually is A Thing, rather than a boogieman, and it's A Thing because socio-economic causes or something tied to pre-immigration culture or whateverthehell the reason, does the fact that the statistic is racist and bad in a number of ways make the issue any less important to deal with? I mean, BAR TEH GATES AND BOIL THE OIL! is one possible response to this perception or reality, but wouldn't there be alternative and more productive responses to be had by addressing such an issue directly?

 

[Domen]

This would be a very valid point in its simplistic worldview if Sweden scored better rape stats than the Arab-infested Middle East.

But in the Arab-infested Middle East women dress modestly and cover their faces. And also they stay at home more often than in Sweden.

In other words - when Arabs move to Sweden they are exposed to a "cultural shock" and more situations which provoke them.

replacing the scapegoat of "race" with the scapegoat of "culture" and calling it a day.

A "scapegoat" as far as my understanding of English goes, is something or someone that is blamed for causing a problem when they actually don't.

But when something is responsible then you can't call it a scapegoat. "Scapegoat" is when the causality is imagined, not when it's real.

In this case the causality is real because the increase in the number of rapes is caused by increasing number of immigrants who commit them.

Statistics can be racist too. No, seriously. Racism is negative prejudice against certain select ethnic groups. Supporting a racist view with a statistic which supports that racist view doesn't make it less racist. It just means it's somewhat founded. This Raping Arab, if it is a thing, is still a racist concept.

No, facts can't be "racist". You can only react to them in various ways, for example a racist way, an anti-racist way, or a rational way.

That would have helped the British back when they were trying to deal with the Irish "race".

As far as I know the British were dealing with the Irish in Ireland. So who were the immigrants? The British were the "guests".

Moreover - as far as I know the Irish were usually the victims of British rapes, murders, plundering raids, etc.

Not that these situations are even similar, but - if anything - the Irish resemble more the Swedes than the Muslim immigrants.

does the fact that the statistic is racist and bad in a number of ways make the issue any less important to deal with? I mean, BAR TEH GATES AND BOIL THE OIL! is one possible response to this perception or reality, but wouldn't there be alternative and more productive responses to be had by addressing such an issue directly?

There would be alternative and more productive responses but the first thing to do if you want to deal with a problem is to accept its existence. On the other hand, the worst thing to do is to claim that the police is racist because they are arresting too many immigrants... Or something like this.

 

[Angst]

Angst, if the raping imigrant actually is A Thing, rather than a boogieman, and it's A Thing because socio-economic causes or something tied to pre-immigration culture or whateverthehell the reason, does the fact that the statistic is racist and bad in a number of ways make the issue any less important to deal with?

I'm not saying it isn't important to deal with at all.

I mean, BAR TEH GATES AND BOIL THE OIL! is one possible response to this perception or reality, but wouldn't there be alternative and more productive responses to be had by addressing such an issue directly?

That's my point.

But in the Arab-infested Middle East women dress modestly and cover their faces. And also they stay at home more often than in Sweden.

In other words - when Arabs move to Sweden they are exposed to a "cultural shock" and more situations which provoke them.

Eh, no.

A "scapegoat" as far as my understanding of English goes, is something or someone that is blamed for causing a problem when they actually don't.

But when something is responsible then you can't call it a scapegoat. "Scapegoat" is when the causality is imagined, not when it's real.

In this case the causality is real because the increase in the number of rapes is caused by increasing number of immigrants who commit them.

... Coinciding with an increased size of a lower class with poor lingual skills with no social mobility, all leading to increased rape

No, facts can't be "racist". You can only react to them in various ways, for example a racist way, an anti-racist way, or a rational way.

If you say that the Raping Arab is a thing, even if proportional, even if it is true, you are saying something racist.

As far as I know the British were dealing with the Irish in Ireland. So who were the immigrants? The British were the "guests".

Moreover - as far as I know the Irish were usually the victims of British rapes, murders, plundering raids, etc.

Not that these situations are even similar, but - if anything - the Irish resemble more the Swedes than the Muslim immigrants.

I don't care about the natives in each situation - why do you care? Would you find that the British were legitimate in their abusive actions and racism if it was simply Irish people moving to Britain? The issue is about leveraging the issue of conflict in a region, not to appeal to primordialism which is indeed a very 19th century of looking at things.

There would be alternative and more productive responses but the first thing to do if you want to deal with a problem is to accept its existence.

I agree with this. There are plenty of people actively supporting multiculturalism that are aware of the issues. They try to deal with them with means other than Barring The Gates - means that exist.

 

[Yeekim]

If you say that the Raping Arab is a thing, even if proportional, even if it is true, you are saying something racist.

I disagree.

According to Merriam-Webster, racism is "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race".

If Raping Arab is "a thing", then it would not be so because his particular genetic makeup, but because of the "cultural shock" Domen mentioned. Unlike genetics, there is nothing "inherent" about culture. It changes, both in the sense that whole culture itself can change and in the sense that people can abandon ways of one culture and adopt those of another.

Estonians, for example, drink and drive a lot. Acknowledging this fact is not racism. It only would be, if you started to claim that this is caused by our genetic makeup and that nothing we ever do will be able to change this characteristic; that even if a group of Estonian babies were taken to Saudi Arabia and raised pious Muslims, they would always be at an increased risk of going to drive drunk.

 

[Tahuti]

Okay, here follows some anecdotal ramblings of mine:

When I lived in Friesland (or should I say, Fryslân) I used to attack people for merely suggesting that immigrants could be more involved in crime due to their culture. In other words, the typical Lefty position. In Friesland I had a couple of friends of Arab descent though it turned out - when I moved to Amsterdam - they were highly assimilated compared to their counterparts elsewhere in the country.

When I made the move, I realised that there could be in fact massive bulges in culture. Furthermore, ethnic groups and social classes voluntarily segregated in the absence of government intervention (like affirmative action) even if they were not aware of themselves: The thought of living alongside Turks was simply unthinkable - in the literal sense, not in the antipathical sense - for Upper Middle-Class Dutch people who could be white, black or Indonesian and pretty much everyone else.

Within some immigrant cultures - I am using the term to signify they may not be necessarily present the ethnic tradition of the entire ethnic group, merely that of members of that ethnic group in the Netherlands - it is rather clear they are far more prone to anti-social behavior than other ethnic groups or ethnic Dutch people. One could say that I now have a healthy prejudice towards people of certain ethnic groups - thought not necessarily a feeling of fear or hatred - which goes away if an individual case turns out to be decent person, for that particular person.

 

[Traitorfish]

I have to give it to you, "healthy prejudice" is a refreshing change from "not prejudiced, but".

 

[Quackers]

It isn't what you say it is how you act. Say for instance if somebody moves from a vibrant, diverse, multicultural Northern city and moved to a largely homogenous, vastly white Scottish city in the middle of nowhere. You would have to question their subconscious and conscious racism.

 

[Traitorfish]

Saying is a kind of acting.

 

[Farm Boy]

Only kinda though. Lest we confuse actors with actors.

 

[peter grimes]

The actors I work with tend to be the kind who can't pretend their way into an imaginary box.

Seriously.

One guy yelled at us because the bottle of Guinness had some labeling and he said "it *^%^ threw me" - meaning he got distracted by something on the label he thought shouldn't be there.

But we had the bottles shipped from Ireland, so we knew he was full of it.

Actors these days simply don't.

 

[Ironsided]

Thread of shame. I saw that little 3-year old guy Aylan face down in the water was on his way to Canada via Sweden. Shame he died. Guess there was no plan. ...and no compassion ...and no decency.

/Pupz / Jernsida 1-4 and a trillion other banned accounts.

 

[Verbose]

If anyone is actually interested in something as pedestrian as crime in Sweden, there's this place:
https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home.html