Term 6 - The Senate Forum

[Cyc]

That sounds like a very good idea to me too. I would think that would go under the tile development law, D.1.E. Would we need two separate proposals for that (along with two separate polls)? Or could we put them together in both presentations?

 

[Shaitan]

I don't think a rule change is needed for a provincial priority list. It's one of those things governors can just go ahead and do.

 

[Cheetah]

I will probably vote yes to both proposals, but if someone agrees to one and disagrees with the other, it might be better to have two.

Maybe set up a multiselection poll:
1. Yes to "Governors one task control"
2. No to "Governors one task control"
3. Yes to "Priority List"
4. No to "Priority List"

 

[SKILORD]

Originally posted by Cyc
SKILORD awakes! Welcome SKILORD. Will you be starting a new thread for the SW Province? Coffee and doughnuts are over here and relevant issues are being discussed now. BTW, is that a mud pie on your avatar?

1. A new thread will appear as soon as I manage to get a look at the game.

2. No it's not, actually it's the Alternate history symbol, ripped from Del Rey's Alternate History logo.

As towards the current discussion. I have always been an advocate of giving governors complete control over workers, and once even tried to get governors a small Provincial Gaurd and a set of workers to command.

I would be willing to work with the priorities list though, it seems like a more than workable plan.

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by Shaitan
I don't think a rule change is needed for a provincial priority list. It's one of those things governors can just go ahead and do.

But what's to make this a priority list if there's no rule change/addition? What's to keep the DP from doing whatever they want in a Province regardless of what's on the Priority List? I think we may need to hear what DZ had to say about the Lists.

 

[Ehecatl Atzin]

I agree with Cyc, if the list is to work correctly, it needs a bit of oficiality to it, not just something the governors "wip up" sort of say. If it is to a national & provincial priority list, it should be offical. I also agree with the 'one action' eartaging, it seems acceptable. Count my affirmative vote in.
Welcome Skylord

EA

 

[Cyc]

Well, OK. It looks like we have the majority of Governors participating here. First thing I want to say is that I'm very proud that all of you have voiced your opinion, and helped us through this issue.

It seems we have 6 strong YES votes, Veera is not for either Proposal, and Gingerbread Man seems to be for a strong worker stance for the Governors, but I'd still like to hear from him. That makes 3/4 of the Senate in favor of the two proposals, the first being made part of CoL C.1.G, and the second showing early support for becoming part of CoL D.1.E.

If anyone of the Governors would like to add their comment to the second proposal becoming part of D.1.E, please make them now.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I vote YES.

This will give my province the chance to get some improvements that the Japanese didn't do.

EDIT: thats on both proposals

 

[Shaitan]

I think it would be better to pursue the earmarking proposal and try out the priority list without legislation. I am leary of making multiple changes in the rules for the same problem, especially when both of them together could effectively eliminate another department's specified duty and the DP's ability to manage an aspect of the game.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Originally posted by Donovan Zoi
I agree with Shaitan. This concept would take a lot of work. My feeling is that each province should have a "Priority List" labeling the most urgent worker actions needed in the province. There should be a national Priority List as well.

This list should be based on two things: urgency of the proposed task and proximity of a worker or workers to said task. In other words, if a mine is needed in a hurry but is 7 tiles by road from the nearest worker, is it worth the loss of two turns to send a worker directly there and bypassing another need in the province?

Same would go go for a national list. An example of a national priority would be our current need to build a cross-country railway. Another may be an emphasis on mining once we reach Industrialization. Pollution will be a huge factor in the future, so this should be a national priority as well.

These lists would not only help the DP better determine the needs of our governors, but they would also work as a checklist to ensure that each province received its fair share of development.

This was my first post on this matter. How we could work this into law is another story.

My original intent was to have the list as unofficial tasks that the DP should strive to accomplish. The progress would be measured by which tasks came off the list.

However, I think it would be unreasonable to hold governors accountable for wanting a task outside the reach of the current batch of workers. This will become less and less of a problem as we lay rails across our country.

Let me give this matter some thought, and I will give an even better evaluation sometime this weekend.

 

[Goonie]

Rhineland vote = yes.

Anyone want to work with the proposal I wrote?

 

[Veera Anlai]

I must say that I believe the best proposal so far has been Ravenfire's proposal His proposal guarantees that provincial governors will complete the tasks they wish as well as providing the DP with a National Work Force to complete important Fanatika-wide projects. It provides the best of both worlds, and provides the governors more latitude than the earmarking or the list proposal without restricting the DP too greatly.
Although Ravenfire's labor proposal may be a bit more difficult to implement (I think it will require the passing of new legislation) in the long run, the benefits should outweight the short term problems.

As for the current earmarking proposal, I believe that it's negatives outweight the benefits: a massive increase of workers being built for the sole purpose of completing one task before the DP takes them over. It's a lot of trouble for a task that could just as easily be done by being patient and waiting for the DP to get through the priority list. Although I see where the earmarking proposal could introduce changes, I don't see where it will actually solve any problems. New Japan's vote is no on that particular measure.

The lists... A bit more workable than the earmarking proposal. And potentially far more confusing for the poor Designated Player. It will take a lot of hard work to get it working, and I believe the benefit may be pretty minimal. Again, I believe a dedicated work force would be a more plausible answer than objectively splitting our force depending upon the job. Right now, New Japan's stance on the issue of using a Priorities List is a very firm maybe... I'll need to think about it more.

 

[Cyc]

Thanks again Veera, for the input, and Goonie, and GBM, and EA.

Quoting Shaitan:
I think it would be better to pursue the earmarking proposal and try out the priority list without legislation. I am leary of making multiple changes in the rules for the same problem, especially when both of them together could effectively eliminate another department's specified duty and the DP's ability to manage an aspect of the game.
_____________________________________________

Niether one of these proposals would make a "change" in our laws. They would merely solidify and clarify the existing laws. There has been a large amount of disagreement as to the meaning of the two laws in question and these additions would help not only the citizens, but the Judiciary understand just what the laws implicate. No specific duties are eliminated by these proposals and the authority of the DP has not been deminished. By extending the writings of each law, the intent of the law is more pronounced and made easily understandable to the citizens of Fanatika. I understand your hesitation, Shaitan, but both of these additions are needed at this time.

 

[Cyc]

Governor Goonie, in regards to your proposal listed below, basic changes have been made to its original concept. I have put together working proposals for each idea now on the table after yours below. The first one for Worker Action - Earmarking, the second for Tile development - Priority Lists. But yours first:

Earmarking Proposal by: The Grand Fanatikan Senate
*All workers that are built in a province may be earmarked for 2 improvements before control is turned over to the Federal Government to be used anywhere in the nation.
*Workers are earmarked when a govenor puts worker actions for that worker under the city in which it is being built in the build queues.
*Govenors may request that more improvements be built, but this is not a guaranted right.
*For a DP to disregard any earmarking is breaking the law and shall, if proven guilty, warrant impeachment.

Presented by Govenor Goonie of Rhineland to the Grand Fanatikan Senate
_________________________________________________

1. It has been deemed than a single improvement is more workable than two.
2. Workers would be "earmarked for work in the Province, not the city.
3. The priority Lists would make this a redundant statement.
4. Impeachment is a "bit" to harsh. Normal PI procedures would take effect here.

Therefore, Worker Action - Earmaking Proposal (Working Copy)

CoL C.1.G (The President) Organizes worker activities.

...............CoL C.1.G.1 When a Province produces a Worker in any
...............city, that worker can be "earmarked' by the Governor to
...............be used for any one improvement in that Province. No
...............additional work by that Worker in that Province is
...............required of the DP. If additional work is to be done by
...............that Worker in that Province, then it is to be done after
...............the work the Worker was "earmarked" for. (ie, if the
..............."earmarked" work was to irrigate a grassland two tiles
...............off the road, the worker would do the irrigating first,
...............and if the DP wanted to have road to that irrigation, it
...............would be done afterwards.)

Tile Development - Priority Lists (Working Copy)

CoL D.1.E A Governor organizes tile development in his Province.

................CoL D.1.E.1 Governors may produce and post a Priority
................List for the work to be done in their Province. This list
................can contain up to three improvements that must be
................completed before the DP is allowed to do other work in
................the Province. National Priorities, such as putting in a
................trans-continental railroad or a road to access a new
................Resource or Luxury, even supplying a road to the
................Military for unit advancement in a war, can supersede
................The Priority Lists temporarily, if justified. But if the
................Governor posts his Priority List in the Turn Chat
................Instruction thread, no other kind of tile development
................or improvement may be made by the DP until these
................Priorities are completed.

OK, as stated, these are only working copies of the two proposals at this time. Please posts comments and questions about them and state your feelings in regards to the wording of each proposal or its nature.

 

[Ehecatl Atzin]

While I agree with Veera in her support for Ravenfire's proposal, I see no way it could come to pass in the game. Fanatika has a history of unconventionalism A national plan by the DP has been tried but it just doesn't work like that, or hasn't been able to work like that. We can set up national, general plans, but nothing that includes details and step by steps. Without ptw to actually name the workers I believe this is the next best thing.
Now, Veera says the DP will have more work to do under this proposal. Note that I've never said the DP should be in charge of seeing what worker does what. It has never been my intention to beef up the DP's workload, quite the contrary, it should be governors who are in charge of seeying workers do what they are supposed to do, it is, after all, their province.
If the DP does a worker action that wasn't asked for, it is up to the governor to call him/her on it, not the other way around, so why not let governors be more responsable as well? and not just let them have the power to point guilt.
I also agree with Shaitan, the less laws the better (gotta stop reading Montiesquieu ) but I'm affraid that without this having a smell of officiality, it could as easily be ignored as a common post could be.

EA

 

[Cyc]

Governors. I am posting a statement here that the proposed amendments to the CoL dealing with your rights have had another line added to them. It is:

If a Priority List or Earmarked work action is 4 tiles away from a road, then the worker MAY build road to the worksite, but once a road is started to the worksite, then the original Work action MUST be completed before the worker is released.


Shaitan has proposed this addition and for the sake of the proposal and to reduce futher future complexity, I have made the addition. Please post your comments. It is not a major restriction and will help the passage of the amendments. The poll will go up tomorrow if no major objections are heard from the Senate.

 

[Shaitan]

That would be 4 or more tiles away by road. Two tiles without a road. The point was "wasting" a turn by expending full movement into a tile that was not going to be worked.

 

[Cyc]

That's kind of a ridiculous statement Shaitan. Workers are moved beyond 4 roaded tiles all the time in a game. The change stands. At the begining of a game, roads can be scarce in a new Province. Although I like to build lots of roads my self, moving through a terrain three unroaded tiles is not a major sin. Priorities are just that. If the Governor sees a problem that needs attention, he or she shouldn't have to wait for the DP to build road. That can be done after the work is completed. We are only talking three tiles of road. They are not a priority. They are other tile development that are used to increase efficiency. Big difference.