[RD] The Democrats are to Blame for Republican Control of the US

[Bootstoots]

True. But if you are a resident in a "company town" in the middle of nowhere that was built around a factory that closed down a couple decades ago and you "can't leave" because you think you either can't compete elsewhere or you just don't understand the world well enough to recognize you are a dying leaf on a dead branch that does make you undereducated, and there are a whole lot more of those than there are farm and ranch hands.

Most of those people who think they can't compete elsewhere are right about that, and the knowledge that the social/political/economic leaders regard them as obsolete no doubt contributed to the outcome where a buffoonish protectionist on a populist platform won the Rust Belt instead of a competent technocrat widely regarded (fairly or not) as an elitist. The current wave of populism sweeping the Western world is the most significant political development in developed countries so far this century, and they're rising, not falling. Just because right-wing populists skew older and disproportionately live in stagnant or declining cities, suburbs, and rural areas doesn't mean that you can write them off like this.

 

[Patine]

I think it all comes down to the fact that, no matter what President or Party is in the White House, or who controls Congress, politics in Washington, DC have seen suffering the Curse of the Hope Diamond since Harry Winston donated it to the Smithsonian Institute in 1958...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You are talking to an unabashed market fundamentalist...of course he isn't going to get it.

Actually, I have no problem with providing such people with reasonable services and a basic living...if they would take it and be satisfied. The problem is that they are the people obstructing such progressive solutions, preferring to believe "dem lib'ruls cost us our jerbs and if we can just seize control we can make them give them back."

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Most of those people who think they can't compete elsewhere are right about that, and the knowledge that the social/political/economic leaders regard them as obsolete no doubt contributed to the outcome where a buffoonish protectionist on a populist platform won the Rust Belt instead of a competent technocrat widely regarded (fairly or not) as an elitist. The current wave of populism sweeping the Western world is the most significant political development in developed countries so far this century, and they're rising, not falling. Just because right-wing populists skew older and disproportionately live in stagnant or declining cities, suburbs, and rural areas doesn't mean that you can write them off like this.

Those products of an imploding company town are no less equipped to compete than an illegal alien, or an inner city kid, or anyone else. Their only real handicap is location.

The problem is that leadership lies to them continuously. Their parents tell them about the "golden age" when "the plant was up and running" without telling them that that age is not coming back no matter which group they choose to blame this time around. Their mayor tells them that they just need to "attract" a new industry, like a prison or something. The Republicans tell them that if they could just kill every last liberal trickle down would finally work out. And then Trump tells them that he cares, and they buy it...no surprise.

 

[Patine]

Those products of an imploding company town are no less equipped to compete than an illegal alien, or an inner city kid, or anyone else. Their only real handicap is location.

The problem is that leadership lies to them continuously. Their parents tell them about the "golden age" when "the plant was up and running" without telling them that that age is not coming back no matter which group they choose to blame this time around. Their mayor tells them that they just need to "attract" a new industry, like a prison or something. The Republicans tell them that if they could just kill every last liberal trickle down would finally work out. And then Trump tells them that he cares, and they buy it...no surprise.

Other than others in their insider circles of power, who EXACTLY is leadership and government NOT lying to about something for some end? How are they unique by deceived by the powers that be?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Other than others in their insider circles of power, who EXACTLY is leadership and government NOT lying to about something for some end? How are they unique by deceived by the powers that be?

Every American has exactly the same ability to avoid deception. No one is forcing people to watch Fox News, but there are many who choose to do so. No one has any less access to public access to government information than anyone else, yet there are people who believe that Republican administrations slow the rate of growth in the national debt.* Why is that?



*Before the "unapologetic market fundamentalist" outcry starts...I used that example not because I'm giving an opinion on the benefits of debt, but just because it is such a glaring example of disinformation. The treasury department publishes reports. The General Accounting Office publishes reports. The congressional office of management and budget publishes reports. ALL of those reports indicate that the largest growth of deficits has consistently occurred under Republican administrations, yet the GOP consistently puts out the "debt is all the Democrats fault" line and is totally taken at their word. This argument isn't about debt bad or good, just a plain statement that this outright lie goes unchallenged by their constituency even in the face of clear reference to sources.

 

[Patine]

Every American has exactly the same ability to avoid deception. No one is forcing people to watch Fox News, but there are many who choose to do so. No one has any less access to public access to government information than anyone else, yet there are people who believe that Republican administrations slow the rate of growth in the national debt.* Why is that?



*Before the "unapologetic market fundamentalist" outcry starts...I used that example not because I'm giving an opinion on the benefits of debt, but just because it is such a glaring example of disinformation. The treasury department publishes reports. The General Accounting Office publishes reports. The congressional office of management and budget publishes reports. ALL of those reports indicate that the largest growth of deficits has consistently occurred under Republican administrations, yet the GOP consistently puts out the "debt is all the Democrats fault" line and is totally taken at their word. This argument isn't about debt bad or good, just a plain statement that this outright lie goes unchallenged by their constituency even in the face of clear reference to sources.

"It's much easier to convince them of a big lie than a small lie," Adolf Hitler.

I'm sorry, and I know there's some named person with some set of laws for political debate that says you automatically lose said debate when you bring up Hitler, Orwell's novel 1984, and a few other things, but I both couldn't resist, and I disagree that these "distasteful" references are never valid in modern political debate and must be avoided at all costs. Certainly, Churchill would agree with me there.

 

[Narz]

Obama and Clinton have run the largest ground games in presidential history.

And yet Clinton got the fewest votes of any candidate in eight years. She was simply a poor choice.

 

[Lexicus]

We needed Warren

 

[Bootstoots]

It's probably worth noting that Warren will 'only' be 71 in 2020 - she's three years younger than Trump, and being a woman she gets a life expectancy boost on top of that. Trump will probably be unpopular if his constant negative-double-digit net approval ratings are anything to go by, and the Dem establishment might finally see the light and want to go in a more populist* direction. There might be other people we don't commonly hear about who could become known political figures if such a transition happens as well. One of the most crucial things will be to lean on inclusive rhetoric and promote reformist policies as common-sense reforms designed to help every American, rather than as socialism (contra Sanders) or otherwise very left-wing. Quite a few things that the Warren/Sanders types support would actually be popular in the Rust Belt if they were sold well, and there would be an authentic populist tone that people in this area really care about.

*We really need to take this term back from the right. I see politics as having a populist-elitist dimension distinct from both social and economic views, so that there are populists from the left (Sanders), center (Perot), and right (Trump, Le Pen, etc).

 

[aelf]

Told you so.

Aren't liberals also responsible for conservatives being bigots by dismissing their opinions as well?

 

[onejayhawk]

Aren't liberals also responsible for conservatives being bigots by dismissing their opinions as well?

Of course not. That would make liberals bigots.

Oh. Wait. They are.

J

 

[FriendlyFire]

Of course not. That would make liberals bigots.
Oh. Wait. They are. J

Unlike that person we just elected, he loves muslims, mexicans, blacks and the poorly educated
I will say it again, Liberals overplayed the cultural issues which did not resonate with many americans and aliented a large number of voters. Whom for some reason found that this warning as hollow and empty I dont blame them.

As long as they are aware they voted for a pathological lier, and shady, corrupt, elitest, athiest and amoral person.
Especially our evengancial Republian friends

 

[OranHarken]

that age is not coming back no matter which group they choose to blame this time around.

Ending NAFTA will bring back some, though not all America Factories as it become more expensive to import certain goods. Same with rejecting the TPP. Lowering America's trade deficit will also necessitate the creation of more factories as countries like China will be forced to buy more American goods in order to have access to the American market. The notion that blue collar work is gone forever is ludicrous as is the notion that everyone can move to the city and get a service industry job. That worked in Europe because the countries were smaller and able to fill specific niches with the services their economy was built around in greater Europe. In the United States however internal trade between states is extremely regulated and most small businesses can't make the leap from small to medium because the expenses associated with it. It also has a much larger population than smaller more dynamic European countries liberals hold up as examples of this strategy working. In addition to that some people will just never have the mindset needed and will completely refuse to accept the coastal urbanite cultures in the larger cities.

I simply do not grasp how you can hold such a linear view of economics. The notion that the conditions that enabled blue collar factory work can NEVER come back to America is ridiculous. It may never be at the 40s and 50s level again but I am certain it can be brought back enough to save a hundred or so Secondary and/or Tertiary cities from falling into complete collapse.

 

[OranHarken]

No, actually republican voters are to blame for this. They are the ones who vote to put these guys in. Just like, they are at fault if Trump takes the country down. They voted for him.

You are completely wrong. The DNC ruined it because they rigged the primary against their only candidate who could beat Trump, Bernie. Running an establishment candidate against a populist is moronic during this economy but they had already taken the bribes so what could they do, right? Trump got more Black, Latino and Asian votes than any Republican candidate ever btw check the NYT breakdown of the exit poll data.

 

[Kyriakos]

It is 'interesting' that in a country of 300 million people, the two nominees for potus were those pieces of crap.
And yes, i think that if the dem party had actually not turned into a vanity mechanism for Hillary, their different candidate would likely have defeated Trump.
That said, the entire level of political debate is abysmal. Obviously this isn't only true for the US. Maybe it is true for everywhere. But this is what you get as a result.

Consider that the dem party pulled off the ludicrous feat to fracture its own voters by accusing those who wanted Bernie as being out of touch white people. I am not sure why you expected those to vote for Hillary when they clearly disliked her.

 

[Berzerker]

Trump 'lucked' out by winning the rust belt by small margins. Democrat votes are concentrated in cities and while its nice to win California by a million or 2 it doesn't win national elections when other states are being decided by a few thousands

if elections were decided by district Democrats would win popular votes and lose by districts because more of their districts are lopsided

Michael Moore predicted Trump would win back in July because of trade and the rust belt

 

[OranHarken]

It is 'interesting' that in a country of 300 million people, the two nominees for potus were those pieces of crap.
And yes, i think that if the dem party had actually not turned into a vanity mechanism for Hillary, their different candidate would likely have defeated Trump.
That said, the entire level of political debate is abysmal. Obviously this isn't only true for the US. Maybe it is true for everywhere. But this is what you get as a result.

Consider that the dem party pulled off the ludicrous feat to fracture its own voters by accusing those who wanted Bernie as being out of touch white people. I am not sure why you expected those to vote for Hillary when they clearly disliked her.

The constant shame tactics used on Whites by the left is a major part of what is driving people away from the democratic party to Trump and 3rd party candidates. Basically everyone that tactic was going to work on has been converted already and it was less than half of the White voter base. The Left's persistence with the practically Victorian era shame driven ideology is only fueling division and making White people who would not otherwise give much of a crap about race actively resenting the minorities and liberals spouting it because no one likes being blamed for stuff they personally didn't do.

 

[Kyriakos]

^I agree that there should be a far more balanced/logical way to actually minimize racism, and that the political divide/conquer games very clearly made it a lot worse than it could have been by now.
I don't doubt the particular history of it in the US, yet i thought Sanders' approach to issues as issues about income and humans, instead of race-specific was vastly saner than Hillary's.

 

[onejayhawk]

Michael Moore predicted Trump would win back in July because of trade and the rust belt

He has reason to regret that piece of flippancy. He continued that it would feel good for about a day, then reality would set in.

The constant shame tactics used on Whites by the left is a major part of what is driving people away from the democratic party to Trump and 3rd party candidates. Basically everyone that tactic was going to work on has been converted already and it was less than half of the White voter base. The Left's persistence with the practically Victorian era shame driven ideology is only fueling division and making White people who would not otherwise give much of a crap about race actively resenting the minorities and liberals spouting it because no one likes being blamed for stuff they personally didn't do.

Yep. Fighting hate with hate rarely works. What it did was throw the polling off.

Unlike that person we just elected, he loves muslims, mexicans, blacks and the poorly educated
I will say it again, Liberals overplayed the cultural issues which did not resonate with many americans and aliented a large number of voters. Whom for some reason found that this warning as hollow and empty I dont blame them.

As long as they are aware they voted for a pathological lier, and shady, corrupt, elitest, athiest and amoral person.
Especially our evengancial Republian friends

Just checking. Is "pathological liar, and shady, corrupt, elitist, atheist, and amoral person" supposed to be Clinton or Trump? You seem to mean Trump but it fits Clinton much better. You can start with evangelical hating.

J

PS Sorry, I had to spell check you.