The Islamophobia Network

[Whiskey_Lord]

As I said, I hit all religions with the same stick. I don't give Islam special treatment over or under the others.

 

[kochman]

It is odd to me to think that some people genuinely believe that all religions are basically equal (whether they think them good or bad... equal). That there is no difference...

There are clearly differences...

 

[Ajidica]

There are clearly differences...

Have I ever denied that? There are real differences, and then there are differences that you just made up.

 

[kochman]

And there are differences that you can't seem to understand as well... for both of us.

 

[Ajidica]

And there are differences that you can't seem to understand as well...

It is very hard to understand a difference that doesn't exist. Islam is not a 'violent religion'. Christianity is not a 'violent religion'. Hinduism is not a 'violent religion'. Judaism is not a 'violent religion'. Shintoism is not a 'violent religion'. Native American Animism is not a 'violent religion'. Religion only 'becomes' violent when people make it so.

 

[PeteAtoms]

Is anyone going to deny that acts of violence done on the part of any ideology, isn't the work of fanatics? Is anyone going to argue that 'fanatics,' are by convention, outside the norm?

Unless the terrorists that committed such atrocities can by typified as "the average Muslim," than I don't know how the Islamophobic argument can hold any water.

 

[kochman]

It is very hard to understand a difference that doesn't exist. Islam is not a 'violent religion'. Christianity is not a 'violent religion'. Hinduism is not a 'violent religion'. Judaism is not a 'violent religion'. Shintoism is not a 'violent religion'. Native American Animism is not a 'violent religion'. Religion only 'becomes' violent when people make it so.

Well, when you set your mind up to not accept facts and statistics, backed by verse... I suppose you are right.

 

[Ajidica]

For every verse you can dredge up showing Islam is a 'violent religion', I can pull up several more showing how it isn't a violent religion (by the standards of religion in general). Blaming Islam for terrorist groups is like blaming Christianity for Anders Behring Breivik.

Now, if you want to blame individual mullahs, individual sects, and jurists for being inherantly violent, you will find no objections from me. As soon as you start painting an entire religion a single color based on the actions of a few individuals who have been condemned by both the 'Happy-Hippie' Muslims to the Ayatollah Khomeini, you run into a problem.

 

[kochman]

For every verse you can dredge up showing Islam is a violent religion, I can pull up several more showing how it isn't a violent religion (by the standards of religion in general). Blaming Islam for terrorist groups is like blaming Christianity for Anders Behring Breivik.

Yep... sure... I mean, who cares that the statistics are overwhelmingly against your point? You have a handful of examples to every truckload of mine.

Suicide bombings, not at all about Islam... even though martyrdom is highly rewarded per the Koran.
Beheadings, not at all about Islam... even though this exact, incredibly violent act is directed per the Koran.

Just happens because they aren't rich. Funny that it is isolated to the Islamic world, but it's just socio-economic.

 

[Tee Kay]

And it goes round and round and round and round and round...

 

[Ajidica]

Yep... sure... I mean, who cares that the statistics are overwhelmingly against your point? You have a handful of examples to every truckload of mine.

Is there a particular reason you take individual actions and beliefs and pretend that is what Islam teaches? Khomeini's fatwa against Rushdie is Khomeinis personal belief that is not shared hive-mind like between both Shia and Sunni, or even all Shia. Doing the whole 'I have statistics showing Islam is violent' is just as stupid as saying "Look at the persecution of Irish under Cromwell. Therefore, British people are inherently violent" or "Look at the executions under the CPS and Directory in the French Revolution. This clearly demonstrates that a representative democracy is a very violent idea".

Suicide bombings, not at all about Islam... even though martyrdom is highly rewarded per the Koran.

Martyrdom is also highly rewarded in the Bible and Christianity.

Beheadings, not at all about Islam... even though this exact, incredibly violent act is directed per the Koran.

As far as death sentences go, beheadings aren't that bad. Better to be beheaded then tortured to death or burned at the stake. Beheading is simply a form of execution like firing squad, hanging, or fatal dosage. I am against the death penalty completely, but to portray beheading as some sort of extra abhorrant form of execution is inane.

 

[Tee Kay]

Yep... sure... I mean, who cares that the statistics are overwhelmingly against your point? You have a handful of examples to every truckload of mine.

Are you sure you haven't got it the other way around?

Suicide bombings, not at all about Islam... even though martyrdom is highly rewarded per the Koran.

I'm sure 72 virgins really motivated the LTTE bombers.

Beheadings, not at all about Islam... even though this exact, incredibly violent act is directed per the Koran.

Why be selective about which capital punishment to oppose?

 

[Ajidica]

Islamic World for the most part ain't a much worse place to live in than the rest of the so-called Third World, buddy.

Fun Fact: Until the First Gulf War, Iraq had one of the best living standards in the Arab world and was roughly comprable with poorer areas of America and was ahead of many eastern bloc countries.

 

[Quackers]

Can I see a source for that?

 

[kochman]

Islamic World for the most part ain't a much worse place to live in than the rest of the so-called Third World, buddy.

Tell 1/2 the islamic world's population that... you know, the ones we call women.

 

[kochman]

Is there a particular reason you take individual actions and beliefs and pretend that is what Islam teaches?

It's amazing that even when provided with direct quotes, and the context, you fail to grasp the truth... Oh well, not my problem.

Martyrdom is also highly rewarded in the Bible and Christianity.

Christian martyrdom is dying for your beliefs, and not killing others at the same time.

As far as death sentences go, beheadings aren't that bad.

These are televised worldwide, heads slowly hacked off with machetes... WOW!
Your post is a blatant example of what we call apologism.

 

[Ajidica]

Can I see a source for that?

Robert Fisk, The Great War for Civilization. He says that even after the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq still had one of the highest living standards in the Arab world. Later, even during the sanctions UN workers would describe how the problems in Iraq were so different then what you might find in Hati because Iraq was not a third world population and had a well-developed infrastructure that had been shattered by the Coalition bombings and the oppressive sanctions.

It's amazing that even when provided with direct quotes, and the context, you fail to grasp the truth... Oh well, not my problem.

It's amazing that even when provided with direct quotes and the context, you fail to grasp the truth... Oh well, not my problem.

Christian martyrdom is dying for your beliefs, and not killing others at the same time.

And what source do you have to back up the assertion that putting your life in God's hands and then dying is not martyrdom in Christianity?

These are televised worldwide, heads slowly hacked off with machetes... WOW!

I thought I made it clear I find death penalties abhorrant. As I went on to say, execution swiftly is still execution swiftly. The only countries that come to mind that publicise beheadings are Saudi Arabia (due to Wahabism), the former Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (due to Wahabism), certain commanders of the Northern Alliance (because of their own brutality), and occasionaly in Iran but if memory serves they have been moving away from beheadings and stonings to that point that even one is a major news item.

Swift execution is swift execution regardless of the manner it is carried out.

 

[Flying Pig]

Tell 1/2 the islamic world's population that... you know, the ones we call women.

The ones in Dubai, Indonesia and almost all the rest of it - barring Saudi Arabia and Iran, which are for all intents and purposes Dark Age kingdoms except with mosques in place fo churches - would probably have little idea what you're on about. It's only the really backward countries which have the really backward practises, and our own history shows that you can't blame Islam for that.

 

[Traitorfish]

It is odd to me to think that some people genuinely believe that all religions are basically equal (whether they think them good or bad... equal). That there is no difference...

There are clearly differences...

Well, speaking for myself, my problem is the idea that religion can be meaningfully discussed in terms of essential forms that inform political, social and cultural ideology in a purely one-directional manner, rather than merely being one loosely-defined form of ideology among a colossal web of mutually informing ideological strains. From this perspective, it's not a claim that "all religions are created equal", but that "religion" is not a particularly meaningful category when posed in that kind of isolation, so contrasting Christianity and Islam acontextually is a waste of time. It's like asking whether blue is darker than red.

Is anyone going to deny that acts of violence done on the part of any ideology, isn't the work of fanatics?

Well, I would. Most ideological violence is conducted by men of sound mind and conventional morals. Or would you argue that, for example, the nation-state is not an ideological construction? A fanatic is exceptional in his the content of his ideology and how he acts upon it, not in the fact that he possess one which informs his actions; that is by definition true of everyone.

 

[kochman]

It's amazing that even when provided with direct quotes and the context, you fail to grasp the truth... Oh well, not my problem.

A new low...

And what source do you have to back up the assertion that putting your life in God's hands and then dying is not martyrdom in Christianity?

You really don't see the difference between being killed for holding your beliefs, and killing yourself and others because of your beliefs?

Swift execution is swift execution regardless of the manner it is carried out.

You're right! Off with their heads, ajidic says it's ok. How totally conservative of me.

The ones in Dubai, Indonesia and almost all the rest of it - barring Saudi Arabia and Iran, which are for all intents and purposes Dark Age kingdoms except with mosques in place fo churches - would probably have little idea what you're on about. It's only the really backward countries which have the really backward practises, and our own history shows that you can't blame Islam for that.

Ummm... you're quite wrong.
Iraq, the most secular, is still WAY behind. I suggest you do some traveling over there to see the real deal (I don't mean go to Iraq, but other places), and how the women get treated.

S Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan are obviously the worst... but Syria, Iraq, Jordan, etc... all oppress their women.