The Islamophobia split on the left.

[Flying Pig]

I'm not particularly sure that lawful governments matter. We also lionise revolutionaries, Eagle Squadrons and the Free French. At any rate, I think the question is more what it's fair for people to believe rather than what's necessarily 'right', and certainly not what's legal.

 

[El_Machinae]

A small point: literal means it can't be metaphorical.

often not. But in the way he phrased it, it's fine. His phrasing is akin to the sentence
"I literally just told my son one of Aesop's Fables"
It's internally coherent.

Now, two errors I think are potentially being made: firstly, believing the religious motivations of the terrorists. It's also to be considered that they're interpreting Scripture in order to post-hoc justify their basal urges. By example, many Christians interpret the Eye of the Camel story to mean they're not actually being called to donate their wealth to the poor. They'd have not done so anyway, but use the Bible as cover. Their interpretation of it, anyway.

The other mistake is that, while we all agree that it's interpretation, and that good people can pull good messages from nearly any Scripture, it's just hard fact that some Scriptures will have an easier time fostering such sentiments. It can concomitantly be true that the Fountainhead engenders worse morals than the Bible, overall, but that there are legions of perfectly nice (self-titled) Objectivists.

 

[Takhisis]

Wikipedia's definition of it seems pretty reasonable to me.

I can give examples in the Arab world for 90% of what's described there.

Try reading anything I said at all. I think you're capable of it.

I'll just let Flying Pig's answer stand.

You've said that Arabs (all of them) don't have any identification with their states and then pushed upon them an identity which centres around the total subordination of the individual to the state... not to mention that you're still being incredibly racist.

The Mouthwash brand of logic is an interesting one.

If we're to believe Mouthwash and others, Arabs are apparently driven by one thing; their hatred of Israel and that prior to Israel's existence they literally had nothing else binding them

Their common language, literature, customs, cooking, and of course their identifying themselves as Arabs is of course negligible.

Christians were doing holy war and martyrdom before Islam even existed!

And the Jews were doing that before we did!

It tells you that they believe God exists and saw fit to create a work for humans. It means that the work is perfect, since God made it and God is all-powerful.

What? That conclusion doesn't quite follow…

The lawful government of Syria is not at war (officially declared or even unofficially acknowledged) with the lawful government of America. Kind of a huge difference when trying to compare the situation to that which existed between the UK and Germany in WWII.

Was the US at war with Korea, or (North) Viet Nam, or Iraq (either time) or Afghanistan?

 

[bhsup]

Yes, yes, yes, and... yes. just because Congress lacked the political spine to vote and make it official, anyone claiming those were not wars is imbibing in too much of the whacky weed.

 

[Takhisis]

And they're probably left-wing, too!

But why weren't those wars started legally? Y'know, like the last time the US actually won a war instead of winning battles, i.e. against the Yahtzees?

 

[bhsup]

They were started legally. Just because Congress didn't vote on an official declaration of war, that doesn't mean they didn't authorize the use of force and fund it. And... er, when did we win a battle against a dice game?

 

[Takhisis]

You need to read more webcomics, Mr. sup.

 

[useless]

While there is some justice in your conclusion, it is a significant overstatement.

There seems to be a lot of "It's not like that here." thinking going on. This sort of kill-the-outsider thinking is very common. Individually, people are caring and compassionate, but generally to those they know. I may not be at risk from my neighbors, or you from yours. But I am at risk from your neighbors and you from mine.

When we turn on our neighbors, it gets ugly fast.

J

As Takhisis said, you ignore their culture, their history, customs, common language etc in favor of perceiving them as one seething mass who are only bound by their collective hatred of Israel, which is pretty racist.

Maybe you should do some reading and abandon your prejudices which you clearly hold against Arabs. Do you know about their history? How at one point Arab's controlled a great swathes of land from Pakistan to spain:

But no, let us reduce them to a bunch of backwards, Israeli hating people.

 

[Farm Boy]

Wouldn't one think that the desire, will, and follow-up of building a huge military empire is actually a pretty good measuring stick of how violent, backwards, and hateful a people are?

 

[Tee Kay]

Wouldn't one think that the desire, will, and follow-up of building a huge military empire is actually a pretty good measuring stick of how violent, backwards, and hateful a people are?

Nah, I don't think Americans are a hateful people.

 

[Farm Boy]

I think we can be and have been. Argument provided by you!

 

[Tee Kay]

I think we can be and have been. Argument provided by you!

The atrocity in question was exposed by American army officers, activists, and journalists, and for every war criminal is a person who stands up against them.

So while Americans can certainly be hateful, calling the American nation as a whole hateful is to paint it with way too broad a brush.

...

It's a subtle difference. I'm sure you get it. A lot of people don't. Some of them were even elected.

 

[Farm Boy]

The atrocity in question was exposed by American army officers, activists, and journalists, and for every war criminal is a person who stands up against them.

So while Americans can certainly be hateful, calling the American nation as a whole hateful is to paint it with way too broad a brush.

...

It's a subtle difference. I'm sure you get it. A lot of people don't. Some of them were even elected.

Well sure sure, but actually succeeding in militaristic empire building seems to be one of the better "large picture" measurements(rather than, yes, there are obviously good people around) of how horrible a society is being. You can have a militaristic society and that isn't enough, but building a militaristic society that goes and and takes whatever the hell it wants for as long as its reach extends be it land, money, women, all of these, whatever else, seems to be pretty much the toplist for how terrible and base it is. I just wouldn't hold up an empire as evidence for how great and wonderful a people are. It's pretty much like saying "These people are or at least were great at murder and rape, what a fantastic culture!" And that certainly isn't limited to Arabs or the Caliphates.

 

[warpus]

Whenever I try to say "arabs", my brain wants to say it as "ay-rabs", which for some reason sounds racist. Ah-rabs sounds wrong too, so then my brain shuts down and I try to change the topic by pointing at something in the sky and running away.

 

[Farm Boy]

That's probably because it sounds Southern US to you? Which you're unconsciously taking as an indicator of bigotry? Which if true seems pretty common to me and pretty depressingly funny at the same time.

 

[warpus]

The only times I've heard people say "Ay-rabs" is when they're being jerks. You know, sort of how the innocent word "Jew" sounds just wrong if you say it the right (wrong) way. But my Polish brain can't figure out how else that word can be pronounced.

 

[Mouthwash]

Bear in mind that this country recently erected a memorial to pilots who knowingly flew missions on which their survival was extremely unlikely in order to bomb civilian targets.

Nobody refers to those civilian causalities "the enemy occupiers." But a Palestinian man drives his car over some Israelis, killing a baby? Marvelous!

 

[Farm Boy]

The only times I've heard people say "Ay-rabs" is when they're being jerks. You know, sort of how the innocent word "Jew" sounds just wrong if you say it the right (wrong) way. But my Polish brain can't figure out how else that word can be pronounced.

Yea, putting on the fauxish Southern to be a jerk about something/somepeople maintains just a bit more insulation than using honest to God slurs in one's naked spoken voice. Least that's my experience.

 

[bhsup]

Whenever I try to say "arabs", my brain wants to say it as "ay-rabs", which for some reason sounds racist. Ah-rabs sounds wrong too, so then my brain shuts down and I try to change the topic by pointing at something in the sky and running away.

Probably not a big Ray Stevens fan, eh?

 

[Flying Pig]

Nobody refers to those civilian causalities "the enemy occupiers." But a Palestinian man drives his car over some Israelis, killing a baby? Marvelous!

Well, we kinda did at the time... have you seen any depictions of Germans from the forties? Again, I'm not saying that either one is right, but it shouldn't be a surprise that people in exceptional situations can justify doing things that we in 'normal life' think are awful. It certainly doesn't take an evil person to believe, with the right provocation, that attacking civilian targets is sometimes justified.