The Nazis were considered "left wing" by the people of that time

[civman110]

I see, and would you have any of these Newspapers, statements from politicians at the time and historians at hand to share with us?

It's all on my OP. Check the links.

 

[Angst]

@civman110

Nazi nationalization of property had more to do with an ideal of centralized state capitalism (ie the leftovers of mercantilism) than socialism. It was based on an ideal of self-sufficiency and had ties to older conservatism (which saw the nation as one unit and the king as an enlightened despot) rather than communism, which would be your measure of leftism at that time. Be aware that the Leninist and Stalinist nationalizations were of this exact nature - state capitalist, seen by the Sovjet government as necessary evils for a transitional period (which ended up being USSR's official stance eventually). Older communism, and Marxism (what you would need to define as "left" in order for your argument to make sense), did not formulate an ideal of nationalization of property; rather property should be given to the workforce as an international unit. They did not like states.

In short, it's not only the "left" that can nationalize parts of the nation and provide for the elderly and such; infact the nationalization of property, rather than democratization, is not seen as ideal by most leftists, and it's arguable that Stalinism isn't leftism in many aspects..! The ideology has ties to older conservative politics rather than the left at the time period. And no, it doesn't have ties with the left of today either.

The organic, monolithic forms of conservatism that were dominant with conservatives are still forgotten today in the public mainstream, but conservatives have transitioned slowly into what we understand as right-wing today; with many of the same values as that time (stable government, family nucleaus, and appeals to authority) but without its economic ideals (which idealized self-reliance and nationalist production & consumption). It's more reasonably connected to fascism, which is a form of conservatism.

EDIT And finally, the reason many people called them leftists is because of the problems of the left-right spectrum (which are inherent even in my above argument...); if you identify with either side of the spectrum, everything else being in the other side is a normal position to have. For a long time, people in the West (especially Americans) saw the Nazis as a great, grand movement, especially because they so capably held the red communist menace at bay; the commies were A Thing in Germany at the time. This is the view of mainstream history.

 

[civman110]

@civman110

Nazi nationalization of property had more to do with an ideal of centralized state capitalism (ie the leftovers of mercantilism) than socialism.

That's what socialism is!

The nationalization of private property isn't a "right wing" ideology.

 

[Grisu]

It's all on my OP. Check the links.

I only see one link and that one deals with what one guy thinks the Nazis were....nothing about what they thought at the time.

 

[Angst]

That's what socialism is!

No. Not at all. Plenty of forms of socialism really don't want nationalizations of property. Some want collectivization, but it's not the same, at all. Simply because these many forms of socialism actively despise nation states, and states in general; as such, nationalization = evil. Nationalization is a very particular kind of collectivization that only socialists founded in Leninism embrace.

The nationalization of private property isn't a "right wing" ideology.

Nationalization of private property is part of certain right wing ideologies as well as certain left wing ideologies, but it doesn't really equate the mass of leftist ideologies, especially those that favor collectivization. Fascism indeed drew from several conservative traditions at the time; and conservatives used to sit to the right in parliaments. That's just how it used to be, deal with it.

Remember that conservatives used to draw from horrible people such as Hobbes and Malthus and both conservatism and fascism used to appeal to the elite at the time, that is the monarchy and the academic elite (which had plenty of nazis at the time, in Scandinavia at least). State capitalism, which was utilized in both the USSR and Nazi Germany, was founded in a capitalist economic model that emphasized competition between states rather than individuals, which ideologically is tied more with mercantilism than liberal capitalism or communism, but it is still state capitalism. The USSR did it expecting it to be a transitional period (at least they said they did, the fact of the matter is that they didn't have the power to raise the workers in the other states, so they basically established themselves to be a communist nation with power to enrage workers in other states, and then they fell into very deep and very horrible corruption) while the Nazis did it to be selfsufficient and to enable predation of those states they then wouldn't rely upon economically.

Using the Sovjets as a meter for what the "left" preaches and encompasses at any time in history is not very smart, similar to using the Nazis as a meter for what the "right" preaches and ecompasses at any time in history. Back during late conservatism's heyday, when the monarchies existed, fascists were both intellectually and ideologically connected to the conservative elite and its tenants.

 

[uppi]

Newspapers, historians, statements from politicians at the time. The fact that they published a socialist manifesto and called themselves "The National Socialist German Worker's Party."

Well, lets have a look at newspapers:
this one for example


If I may translate the last complete sentence on that page which talks about the new Hitler government:

The new government is [...] a minority government of the two right-wing parties.

There you have it: People of that time called Hitler and his party right-wing. Go ahead and try to find even one contemporary newspaper that calls the Nazis left-wing. Or maybe just concede that you have no clue about the political situation in Germany at that time.

 

[Angst]

@uppi

I know that some people have called them left-wing, to be fair, even contemporary people, so your challenge is perhaps inappropriate for your argument, but finding one guy that claimed they were left-wing doesn't prove much.

 

[Angst]

Wiki on state capitalism.

It's basically capitalism, working by the same rules, but on a larger scale, with the corporate unit integral to or equal to the state in essence. This is what the Sovjet Union used and what the (early) Nazis wanted, as listed in the OP..

 

[uppi]

@uppi

I know that some people have called them left-wing, to be fair, even contemporary people, so your challenge is perhaps inappropriate for your argument, but finding one guy that claimed they were left-wing doesn't prove much.

But to find one, he would have to do more than just open the first newspaper of that time he comes across (like I did). And maybe after coming across ten newspapers that call the Nazis right-wing, he might see his error.

 

[Angst]

But to find one, he would have to do more than just open the first newspaper of that time he comes across (like I did). And maybe after coming across ten newspapers that call the Nazis right-wing, he might see his error.

Good point. I'm sorry I doubted you

 

[civman110]

I only see one link and that one deals with what one guy thinks the Nazis were....nothing about what they thought at the time.

I certainly didn't include everything I know about the Nazis that lead me to believe what I believe. I could probably write a good page just on the Hitler Youth alone.

You're welcome to do your own research and present some facts that would support your side of the argument and we can debate, but until you do some actual research of your own this is nothing, but you coming in to hen peck.

No. Not at all. Plenty of forms of socialism really don't want nationalizations of property.

They want to nationalize some industries, but not others.

 

[warpus]

If your argument is "The people from that time considered the nazis to be left-wing" and that is true, you should be easily able to produce a newspaper article from that time period stating just that.

uppi was able to do the same thing with the "right-wing" argument, so if your position is corrent, it should be much easier for you to produce such a thing than it was for him (since he's incorrect and all)

 

[Grisu]

I certainly didn't include everything I know about the Nazis that lead me to believe what I believe. I could probably write a good page just on the Hitler Youth alone.

You're welcome to do your own research and present some facts that would support your side of the argument and we can debate, but until you do some actual research of your own this is nothing, but you coming in to hen peck.

Oh I certainly don't expect you to write down everything you know, but if you don't even supply a single source from that time that undermines the claim you make in the title then that's a bit weak, to put it diplomatically.

 

[Angst]

They want to nationalize some industries, but not others.

You don't get it. Many forms of socialism don't want to nationalize anything. At all. Because they find it evil.

 

[civman110]

You don't get it. Many forms of socialism don't want to nationalize anything. At all. Because they find it evil.

Then they aren't socialists.

 

[Borachio]

Oh?

And did the Nazis want to nationalize everything, then?

(He asked, "innocently".)

 

[civman110]

Oh I certainly don't expect you to write down everything you know, but if you don't even supply a single source from that time that undermines the claim you make in the title then that's a bit weak, to put it diplomatically.

However, as I said, there is already several other pieces of information that I provided which explains the reasoning for my position along a link to others who would concur based on their own research into historical documents and what went on during that time period - some of which is presented in the link.

If you disagree with my OP you're welcome to provide evidence to the contrary and we can discuss it.

Oh?

And did the Nazis want to nationalize everything, then?

(He asked, "innocently".)

Evidently, you're unaware what a socialist is if you think they would have to "nationalize everything" in order to be socialist. Perhaps you could do some research of you own then you might have a point to bring to the table and we could debate it.

(He suggested, "innocently.")

 

[Leoreth]

Guys, you can't really have a functioning debate with civman over categories like left and right wing because his definition of right wing is anachronistic and artificially constrained to some sort of modern Reaganite right-libertarian small government conservatism.

Even though this is not nearly the entirety of right wing political thought, he will cling to this definition and consider everything else left wing.

Heck, with this premise even I would consider the Nazis left wing!

 

[Cutlass]

Easy. They're different power blocks.

As I said in my OP, you have to examine their policies to determine what they were.

All their policies were far right.

 

[Leoreth]

But Hitler made Labour Day a national holiday!