The "OMG! Look what happened in DoC!" Thread

[The Diocletian]

Changing religion makes you change civs now?

Make it happen, Leoreth.

dynamic names...

He is still called the Byzantine Empire, though.

In any case, Byzantine culture is worlds away from Roman culture, to the point that there becomes a distinction. Byzantium is not Rome. That's the way I see it, though, and I'm certainly no expert, and I'm not going to try to pass off my opinion as such. Just an avid fan of this kinda stuff, and I'd love to know more.

 

[Krulltak]

Though culturally very different, Eastern Rome was still very much the legitimate political continuation of The Roman Empire proper. Only Frankish barbarians thought otherwise!

 

[The Diocletian]

Though culturally very different, Eastern Rome was still very much the legitimate political continuation of The Roman Empire proper. Only Frankish barbarians thought otherwise!

Right, a political continuation. Not grounds for calling it the Roman Empire.

By Frankish barbarians, I assume you mean these fine fellows?

An example, the Russian Federation is a legitimate political continuation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, but I don't call Russia the USSR today, do I?

Food for thought.

 

[Krulltak]

Aye, them and the whole Karling line. Who do they think they are, getting crowned Roman Emperor without so much as a drop of Tyrian Purple or a single strand of Silk.

My issue with the Russian example is that the Federation does not /themselves/ continue to call themselves the USSR, but the Greeks called themselves The Romans and The Roman Empire all the way until 1453. In fact, I've heard some (possibly apocryphal) stories about Greek peasants still calling themselves Roman citizens during the Greek Independence War. I've always felt its unfair to the "Byzantines" not to think of them and refer to them as the legitimate Roman Empire. Though I do understand the need to say Byzantines for clarity sometimes.

 

[The Diocletian]

Aye, them and the whole Karling line. Who do they think they are, getting crowned Roman Emperor without so much as a drop of Tyrian Purple or a single strand of Silk.

That's the power of the Pope, my friend.

You at least have to give them an A for effort; they certainly tried their damnedest to recreate a Roman empire.

My issue with the Russian example is that the Federation does not /themselves/ continue to call themselves the USSR, but the Greeks called themselves The Romans and The Roman Empire all the way until 1453. In fact, I've heard some (possibly apocryphal) stories about Greek peasants still calling themselves Roman citizens during the Greek Independence War. I've always felt its unfair to the "Byzantines" not to think of them and refer to them as the legitimate Roman Empire. Though I do understand the need to say Byzantines for clarity sometimes.

Oh, they are the legitimate Roman Empire, but after a certain point they morphed into something different, and while they continued to be Roman in many scenes, it's important to find a point where the Eastern Roman Empire morphs into a Greco-Roman mix, having a heavier emphasis on Greek culture then Roman.

 

[Krulltak]

Well I can agree with that, then.

 

[The Diocletian]

Well I can agree with that, then.

It's been an honor having this chat.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

In any case, Byzantine culture is worlds away from Roman culture

That depends on how you define "Roman culture" - whether you're pro-Hellenic like Scipio or anti-Hellenic like Cato.

In any case, throughout times of the Republic and the Empire the eastern half of the Roman state had always been more prosperous than the western half and had always had a distinct, much more Hellenistic culture. The culture of Byzantium is a direct and natural continuation of that rather than some later deviation from some imaginary existing "Roman" norm.

 

[The Diocletian]

That depends on how you define "Roman culture" - whether you're pro-Hellenic like Scipio or anti-Hellenic like Cato.

In any case, throughout times of the Republic and the Empire the eastern half of the Roman state had always been more prosperous than the western half and had always had a distinct, much more Hellenistic culture. The culture of Byzantium is a direct and natural continuation of that rather than some later deviation from some imaginary existing "Roman" norm.

People like Scipio and Cato are a little over my head, because I'm by no means an expert on subjects like this, although I hold a strong interest. Mind giving me a short lesson?

By Roman culture, I mean the distinct and unique culture that developed in the Italian peninsula. You are right that the culture of the Greek people was very dominant in the formation and development of "Roman' culture, which heavily borrows from element all over Europe.

So what you are saying is, the Hellenistic culture that heavily influenced the culture of Rome and it's people is really what Rome culture was? Or do I misunderstand?

(I know I'm saying the word culture too much )

 

[TheGryphonPrince]

Why did you colonized the Falklands/Malvinas ?

I wanted to colonize Montevideo because I wanted to have a foothold in South America, but then Spain came. If I colonized Patagonia then Argentina maybe would have spawned and flipped my colony, causing my already unstable empire to collapse (or at least further unstabilizing it). Pretty much every other place was already taken or would flip, so I had no choice but to colonize the Falklands.

 

[Leoreth]

More to the point, "same culture" becomes sort of a meaningless criterion when talking about timespans of several centuries. Cultures evolve. Byzantium didn't have the culture of 50 BC Latium? So what, it didn't have the culture of 50 BC Athens either.

 

[The Diocletian]

More to the point, "same culture" becomes sort of a meaningless criterion when talking about timespans of several centuries. Cultures evolve. Byzantium didn't have the culture of 50 BC Latium? So what, it didn't have the culture of 50 BC Athens either.

Alright, I give up, I'm officially ********.

What are you trying to say?

 

[strijder20]

I wanted to colonize Montevideo because I wanted to have a foothold in South America, but then Spain came. If I colonized Patagonia then Argentina maybe would have spawned and flipped my colony, causing my already unstable empire to collapse (or at least further unstabilizing it). Pretty much every other place was already taken or would flip, so I had no choice but to colonize the Falklands.

If that is the only place to colonize, don't colonize it

So New Zealand and Australia were taken too? Can't tell it from the map. Because those places are much more fertile.

 

[Leoreth]

Alright, I give up, I'm officially ********.

What are you trying to say?

Don't say that!

What I'm saying is that looking at Byzantium and saying "they're Greek!" or "they're Roman" can only have a meaning insofar as what Greek or Roman meant at the time you're talking about (and since Byzantium spawns a long period of history, say the Makedonian dynasty and the Palaiologos period are two very different things as well).

If your conclusion is that Byzantium is Greek, it doesn't suddenly mean that there is more continuity with Greek polities of an arbitrary point in time in the past than with Roman polities of that time, or vice versa. The whole Hellenic cultural sphere was a part of the unified Roman Empire for a long time and this resulted in strong Greek influences on Roman culture and strong Roman influences on Greek culture. Medieval Byzantine culture was also affected by Slavic, Syriac and Armenian influences in a non-negligible way.

The bottom line is that cultures aren't unchanging entities that move like threads through history while being "adopted" by certain states.

 

[Gruekiller]

Don't say that!

What I'm saying is that looking at Byzantium and saying "they're Greek!" or "they're Roman" can only have a meaning insofar as what Greek or Roman meant at the time you're talking about (and since Byzantium spawns a long period of history, say the Makedonian dynasty and the Palaiologos period are two very different things as well).

If your conclusion is that Byzantium is Greek, it doesn't suddenly mean that there is more continuity with Greek polities of an arbitrary point in time in the past than with Roman polities of that time, or vice versa. The whole Hellenic cultural sphere was a part of the unified Roman Empire for a long time and this resulted in strong Greek influences on Roman culture and strong Roman influences on Greek culture. Medieval Byzantine culture was also affected by Slavic, Syriac and Armenian influences in a non-negligible way.

The bottom line is that cultures aren't unchanging entities that move like threads through history while being "adopted" by certain states.

I'm in full agreement with Leo here.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

First game as Brits, therefore I'm sure there are better setups. What do you recommend?

Sorry it took so long to get back to you.
I haven't been as active as of late.

My preferred setup:
-Settle 1SW (Southampton) instead of London.
You can choke France better this way and it saves your ships several tiles going out of harbor.
-Settle Dublin (1N of regular Dublinn)
Do not let the Celtic city spawn; it's terrible.
-Settle Aberdeen

Ship all your starting troops to the Maghreb and drop off a Settler & Longbowman in South Africa.
From then on, it's pretty much auto-pilot.

How do they get such good tech? The land they control isn't exactly the most bountiful in the map.

Moorish UP helps with that.
Also, it's because of Muslim Wonders and sometimes inheriting Pantheon wonders from old Phoenician cities.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

This is more of a glitch, but it is still pretty crazy.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

^You see this, Diocletian?

Mobile Artillery on Turn 46. That's the power of Moorish science.

 

[SheaferDaDawg]

I was gonna yell WB, and then I saw the message. Seriously, how does that even happen?

 

[Leoreth]

I'm a bit stumped myself.