The real apartheid state.

[Mouthwash]

The fact that Palestine (I include the State of Israel in the way I'm using it right now) is the Jewish home is a combination of history and practical politics: Palestine was historically important for being the site of the old kingdom of Israel, and eventually was part of the road to British victory against the Ottoman Turks, which gave the Yishuv a window to establish a political presence there since the late 1910s. You can't say the same about Uganda or Madagascar.

They both were considered.

Your position on the Arabs doesn't make any sense. Arabs with Israeli nationality are mostly very much Pro-Israel and they should be the last ones to be kicked out of Israel/Palestine.

This is factually wrong to a ludicrous degree. Israeli Arabs are generally Pro-Palestinian, often radically so. That's not to say that plenty of them aren't loyal, but they will remain feared and despised in Israeli society as long as the radicals are there. I think you're confusing them with the Druze.

Especially since you apparently want to give away West Bank, which would require dismantling the settlements, which would probably cause a civil war far more bloody than the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Nah. Most settlers are really attracted to the West Bank because the Israeli government gives them tax breaks and nicer living conditions. There are groups that would fight, but not enough to plunge the country into civil war.

 

[Tahuti]

They both were considered.

Both did not even come close to Palestine in terms of appeal, both towards Zionists and their benefactors.

This is factually wrong to a ludicrous degree. Israeli Arabs are generally Pro-Palestinian, often radically so. That's not to say that plenty of them aren't loyal, but they will remain feared and despised in Israeli society as long as the radicals are there. I think you're confusing them with the Druze.

Druze are also Arabs, since it constitutes a religious group. Anyway, even most Arab Muslims who are Israeli citizens are supportive of Israel: "84.9% stated that Israel has a right to exist as an independent state, and 70% noted that it has a right to exist as a democratic, Jewish state"

http://www.dayan.org/kapjac/files/shamirEng.pdf

Nah. Most settlers are really attracted to the West Bank because the Israeli government gives them tax breaks and nicer living conditions. There are groups that would fight, but not enough to plunge the country into civil war.

The tax breaks is what herds them into West Bank, though I sincerely doubt that those who live there already would leave in droves should the government abolish those. I think underestimate the possibility how significant elements in the army would refuse to carry out such operations.

 

[Domen]

Take a good, long look.

And people say that the N word is pejorative but look - Liberia still uses it in official legal acts (!).

 

[Mouthwash]

Both did not even come close to Palestine in terms of appeal, both towards Zionists and their benefactors.

Uh, yeah. Which proves my point: Jews wanted a state. But when it was just a matter of rescuing Jews from persecution, even Herzl conceded it in favor of Uganda.

Druze are also Arabs, since it constitutes a religious group. Anyway, even most Arab Muslims who are Israeli citizens are supportive of Israel: "84.9% stated that Israel has a right to exist as an independent state, and 70% noted that it has a right to exist as a democratic, Jewish state"

They don't identify as Arabs, and therefore aren't.

I'm aware of that study. But it's almost certainly very flawed, no other study I know even comes close to those numbers. I'd say a good 30% of the Israeli Arab population needs to leave. With a small compensation package, and free housing in the former settlements, which would be abandoned by Israel as part of the peace plan.

The tax breaks is what herds them into West Bank, though I sincerely doubt that those who live there already would leave in droves should the government abolish those.

I've always thought that Israel should annex a few Palestinian villages inland of the Tel Aviv coastal plain, and give those to the settlers as compensation.

I think underestimate the possibility how significant elements in the army would refuse to carry out such operations.

Why couldn't the American army help? Since they're mediating the peace and all?

And people say that the N word is pejorative but look - Liberia still uses it in official legal acts (!).

The N-word isn't really pejorative outside of America.

 

[Agent327]

I'm aware of that study. But it's almost certainly very flawed, no other study I know even comes close to those numbers. I'd say a good 30% of the Israeli Arab population needs to leave. With a small compensation package, and free housing in the former settlements, which would be abandoned by Israel as part of the peace plan.

Good luck reducing Israel to prior 1948 borders.

The N-word isn't really pejorative outside of America.

Really? Have you tried calling a black person that?

 

[Mouthwash]

Good luck reducing Israel to prior 1948 borders.

Which I don't think anyone here is interested in. So please stay off the thread unless you have something to say. I'd ask that it not be scornful or provocative, but that's psychologically impossible for you.

Really? Have you tried calling a black person that?

Nah. My teacher used the word to refer to black people when he was teaching us about racism. And I don't mean "negro," but the more discourteous variant.

 

[useless]

The N-Word is certainly a prejorative over here in Britain.

 

[AdamCrock]

Voice of the people does not matters .... voice of Putler matters ....

 

[HannibalBarka]

There are more Arab countries than Jewish countries.

I heard this argument many times and still don't see any logic in it. Palestinians's home is Palestine not Jordan, Iraq or Sudan. They won't accept another place and I don't think those countries want them either. Palestinians were/are supported by the rest of the Arab world (at least officially, archives shows that this was not always the case unofficially), but that does not make the Arab world part of the "cake" to share. After all, The US are supportive of Israel and there are more US states than Arab countries, so if I follow this argument, if there are room for the Palestinians elsewhere in the Mid-East, there is even more rooms for the Israeli in the Mid-West.

Anyway, I don't think Israel remaining Jewish is the most important concern for Zionists. It is not about having a Jewish state, but about having Palestine as guaranteed sanctuary for Jews, Jewish majority or not. They simply fear that the Palestinians will end this, should they become a majority.

I am with MW on this. I think you are describing Zionist that no longer exist (if they ever did), and certainly not what Israel as a Government or Israeli-Jews want. If it was just for a "safe sanctuary", NYC is certainly the most suitable place.
Zionism is/was a nationalist movement that wanted a place for the Jews to call home and GOVERN.

Given how badly most of the Palestinian political leadership screwed managing the Palestinian territories - even when accounting for Israeli policies such as checkpoints - I totally understand the Israeli position.

I fully agree.

 

[Silurian]

No, I don't buy that. The idea of becoming a minority in our own country flies against everything Israelis believe in. Yes, certain early Zionists just wanted a place for Jews to escape persecution, but if that's the case, why Palestine? Why not Uganda, or Madagascar, or the Russian Far East? The Jewish right to self-determination is Israel's justification for existing.

The reason kicking out Arabs is justified is simply because Israel has much more to lose than them. They can still go to the West Bank or Gaza, which will almost certainly never become predominantly Jewish. I'm not for kicking Palestinians out of the Territories, and actually support a complete dismantling of the settlements. So I hardly think it's fair that Israel should lose its identity under a demographic flood of foreign nationals.

The peace talks have failed and the occupation of the West Bank will continue.

Younger Palestinians are giving up on the idea of having a separate state of their own.

Israel has to decide soon if they want the Palestinians of the West Bank to be Israeli citizens.


From NY Times

In a December poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, 65 percent of people over 50 said they supported the two-state solution, compared with 47 percent of those 18 to 34. Khalil Shikaki, the center’s director, said that about a third of all Palestinians expressed interest in the one-state alternative, but that its backing among those under 45 is more solid and “cannot be satisfied by a two-state solution.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/19/w...alestinians-on-a-two-state-solution.html?_r=0

 

[Mouthwash]

The N-Word is certainly a prejorative over here in Britain.

I suppose the word has acquired similar connotations in the English-speaking world. Maybe it's only pejorative in countries with a history of slavery?

I heard this argument many times and still don't see any logic in it. Palestinians's home is Palestine not Jordan, Iraq or Sudan. They won't accept another place and I don't think those countries want them either. Palestinians were/are supported by the rest of the Arab world (at least officially, archives shows that this was not always the case unofficially), but that does not make the Arab world part of the "cake" to share. After all, The US are supportive of Israel and there are more US states than Arab countries, so if I follow this argument, if there are room for the Palestinians elsewhere in the Mid-East, there is even more rooms for the Israeli in the Mid-West.

The problem is that Palestinians are similar, ethnically, to other Arabs. Even if they consider themselves Palestinians, they can still easily integrate and become loyal citizens of Jordan or Syria (this process has been held up by the refusal of the Arab countries to accept them out of the fear that they would lose a political tool against Israel). Israeli Jews, on the other hand, aren't really European or Arab. They have only one place to go, and it seems that they have a heck of a lot more to lose than the Palestinians, given the demographic impossibility of creating a Jewish state across the whole of Palestine.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I suppose the word has acquired similar connotations in the English-speaking world. Maybe it's only pejorative in countries with a history of slavery?

Why don't you ask that racist "teacher" of yours who should have been fired on the spot?

The problem is that Palestinians are similar, ethnically, to other Arabs. Even if they consider themselves Palestinians, they can still easily integrate and become loyal citizens of Jordan or Syria (this process has been held up by the refusal of the Arab countries to accept them out of the fear that they would lose a political tool against Israel). Israeli Jews, on the other hand, aren't really European or Arab. They have only one place to go, and it seems that they have a heck of a lot more to lose than the Palestinians, given the demographic impossibility of creating a Jewish state across the whole of Palestine.

What utter nonsense. Jews can live most anywhere these days without fear of any real persecution or even discrimination.

Palestinians have just as much right to live in that region as any Jew does. They were even promised that in 1948 as part of the agreement which first created the state of Israel. Don't you think it is about time that the Israelis finally lived up to that promise over 65 years later?

 

[Mouthwash]

Why don't you ask that racist "teacher" of yours?

He was teaching that racism was wrong. So I think it's pretty clear.

What utter nonsense. Jews can live most anywhere these days without fear of any real persecution or persecution.

Well, not in the Middle East. And that's not what I've said. I've been arguing against the idea that all Jews need is a "safeplace" and not the right to govern ourselves.

Palestinians have just as much right to live in Palestine as any Jew does.

Sure. But it's kind of hard to fit eleven million Palestinians into the same ten thousand square miles that six million Jews are living in. Similarly, if all the Jews of the world decided to emigrate to Israel tomorrow, we wouldn't be able to take them without kicking out the remaining Palestinians.

 

[Silurian]

Palestinians have just as much right to live in that region as any Jew does.

Sure. But it's kind of hard to fit eleven million Palestinians into the same ten thousand square miles that six million Jews are living in. Similarly, if all the Jews of the world decided to emigrate to Israel tomorrow, we wouldn't be able to take them without kicking out the remaining Palestinians.

Just as all Jews have not moved to Israel, it is unlikely that all Palestinians will move back to Israel.

Kicking out the remaining Palestinians would not be accepted as it was in the 40s, 50s and 60s when people were still leaving Europe to colonize Africa and Asia and there were still people in the US who could remember the colonization of the west. The boycotts, divestment and sanctions would be greater than any that South Africa received. The Jewish population in Europe would be subject to a massive rise in racist attacks. So it is not going to happen unless Israel is ruled by mad people.

 

[H4run]

There is no need to debate on what the Zionist suppose to do with the Palestinian because it is already clear, it is not the Palestinian or the Arabs loyalty toward the state that was in question for the Zionist to expel or not to expel its Arabs population, because it is already part of their objective, and they will do it sooner or later.

The reason for that is because the Zionist believe Israel is a Jew state, other reason (like loyalty and other cheap crap) it just a custom/fake clothing for its legitimacy.

My resentment toward Israel government is already reach till the top of my head and this thread just make everything more clearer for me, I really respect a bitter truth about Israel, than the sweet delusional one. While to expel the Arabs from Israel state it correlated with the very principle that Zionism fought for from its very beginning, from its very own founding father and ideology, as it stated by David Ben Gurion:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

Or by Yizhak Shamir

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

All of those are pretty much correlated with one of the Zionist poster world view regarding the Palestinian in the Israel occupy terrortory. Lets accept this truth. So we can react accordingly to this very fact. Israel is a fascist state.

 

[Mouthwash]

Just as all Jews have not moved to Israel, it is unlikely that all Palestinians will move back to Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

There is no need to debate on what the Zionist suppose to do with the Palestinian because it is already clear, it is not the Palestinian or the Arabs loyalty toward the state that was in question for the Zionist to expel or not to expel its Arabs population, because it is already part of their objective, and they will do it sooner or later.

The reason for that is because the Zionist believe Israel is a Jew state, other reason (like loyalty and other cheap crap) it just a custom/fake clothing for its legitimacy.

My resentment toward Israel government is already reach till the top of my head and this thread just make everything more clearer for me, I really respect a bitter truth about Israel, than the sweet delusional one. While to expel the Arabs from Israel state it correlated with the very principle that Zionism fought for from its very beginning, from its very own founding father and ideology, as it stated by David Ben Gurion:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

Or by Yizhak Shamir

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

All of those are pretty much correlated with one of the Zionist poster world view regarding the Palestinian in the Israel occupy terrortory. Lets accept this truth. So we can react accordingly to this very fact. Israel is a fascist state.

First and third quotes are old and tired and have been repeatedly shown to be fake. Couldn't find anything about the second after a quick search, but I won't lose sleep over it.

 

[Silurian]

There is no need to debate on what the Zionist suppose to do with the Palestinian because it is already clear, it is not the Palestinian or the Arabs loyalty toward the state that was in question for the Zionist to expel or not to expel its Arabs population, because it is already part of their objective, and they will do it sooner or later.

Spoiler :

The reason for that is because the Zionist believe Israel is a Jew state, other reason (like loyalty and other cheap crap) it just a custom/fake clothing for its legitimacy.

My resentment toward Israel government is already reach till the top of my head and this thread just make everything more clearer for me, I really respect a bitter truth about Israel, than the sweet delusional one. While to expel the Arabs from Israel state it correlated with the very principle that Zionism fought for from its very beginning, from its very own founding father and ideology, as it stated by David Ben Gurion:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

Or by Yizhak Shamir

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

All of those are pretty much correlated with one of the Zionist poster world view regarding the Palestinian in the Israel occupy terrortory. Lets accept this truth. So we can react accordingly to this very fact. Israel is a fascist state

.

That is the past.

When Israel was ethnically cleansing the Palestinians in the 40s, 50 and 60s Western countries had behaved in similar ways in the recent past.

That is no longer acceptable in western countries.

Israel wants to be viewed as a western country and it largely is apart from its treatment of the Palestinians. If Israel was to start ethnically cleansing the Palestinians again it would lose nearly all support and so would be effectively be the suicide of the nation is currently constituted. So as I said above it is not going to happen unless Israel is taken over by mad men.

 

[H4run]

That is the past.

When Israel was ethnically cleansing the Palestinians in the 40s, 50 and 60s Western countries had behaved in similar ways in the recent past.

That is no longer acceptable in western countries.

Israel wants to be viewed as a western country and it largely is apart from its treatment of the Palestinians. If Israel was to start ethnically cleansing the Palestinians again it would lose nearly all support and so would be effectively be the suicide of the nation is currently constituted. So as I said above it is not going to happen unless Israel is taken over by mad men.

Assuming it is like that, as you had said, but those notion are really fitted with what mouthwash addressed, for instance I cannot distinguish between this:

Sure. But it's kind of hard to fit eleven million Palestinians into the same ten thousand square miles that six million Jews are living in. Similarly, if all the Jews of the world decided to emigrate to Israel tomorrow, we wouldn't be able to take them without kicking out the remaining Palestinians.

and this

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

or between this

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

with the subtle intention to wash off Palestinian in the "Jewish exclusive" state because the Palestinian are a disloyal potential fifth columnist, even though it is only an assumption without fact but that is enough for a reason indeed (I edit this to make it more readable), because the real reason of course is not that, loyal or disloyal doesn't make any different.

I think what he voiced here is not far away from the quotation that I quoted before, if you think those are the old Zionist world view, seeing mouthwash in this forum is a sign that there is huge possibility that those world view haven't evolve yet, maybe evolve in method or becoming more subtle, but in intention I really doubt it!

And it is good he speak it loudly, proudly and straight forwardly. And still he refuse to admit himself to be a racist for stating that the Palestinian have no place within "exclusively Jewish" state hence must be kicked out when the Jewish population become fatter, why is that? because it is a Jewish state, as the priority is clearly stated, Jewish state not other race state. That itself is quite an apartheid statement, and that made me wonder why I don't see the anti-Apartheid champion here aka CH? I think this fact is against his political interest, lets wait until the Palestinian do a small silly mistake or until the media twist some event then his mouth will be wide open screaming how the evil Palestinian persecuted the zionist Jews.

 

[Silurian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return
.

I cannot see why Palestinians would want to move to Israel to a greater extent than Jews. Six million already live in areas under Israeli control. Nearly a million live in the west including 255000 in the US. That leaves about four million in various Arab states. Of those about 2.3 million are registered as refugees.

So there are 2.3million Palestinians who maybe better off if they moved into Israeli controlled territory. But if there are no jobs or housing for them there is not going to be a strong desire to swap one refugee camp for another.

 

[Masada]

First and third quotes are old and tired and have been repeatedly shown to be fake. Couldn't find anything about the second after a quick search, but I won't lose sleep over it.

The Journal of Palestine Studies (which is published by the University of California Press) response to the claim that the first quote is a fake can be found here. Among other things, the JPS notes that the letter can be found in Hebrew in the collection of the Ben-Gurion Archives Online. JPS also notes that other Israeli historians including Ben-Gurion biographers Shabtai Teveth have used the quote.

The source for the third quote can be found in the April 1, 1988 edition of the New York Times. I have provided a link to it here. I think the quotation is little problematic because it's hard to reconstruct how precisely the quote looked given that it's broken up across different paragraphs. Does the grasshopper quip follow or precede the desire to dash people's heads against walls? Who knows. But I'd suggest that a plain reading of the context in which the first paragraph is written strongly implies that the two quotes are linked and taken from the same speech. I'll leave that one up to the readers to decide. But I think we can say with quiet confidence that the quote was not a fake. It might be forced. But it is nevertheless an accurate summation of the sentiments that Mr Shamir expressed.

As Israel prepared to lift a three-day blockade of the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir warned today that rioters would be crushed ''like grasshoppers.''

Anybody who wants to damage this fortress and other fortresses we are establishing will have his head smashed against the boulders and walls

The second quote is also accurate. The article was indeed published on October 23, 1979 by the NYT which can be found here. The article reports that Yitzhak Rabin was barred from including in his memoirs a first hand account of the expulsion of Palestinian civilians from Lydda and Ramle in 1948 by a Council of Isreali Ministers. In his uncensored reminiscences, Mr Rabin talks about how the final decision was made by David Ben-Gurion with a wave of his hand which Mr Rabin took to mean to mean to "drive them out". Mr Rabin is quoted as saying that he "was puzzled" by the decision to bar publication and that he had to "obey because I can't violate the law of the country". The unexpurgated account was leaked to the NYT's reporter David Shipler by the Israeli journalist Peretz Kidron who translated the original uncensored text into English.