The real apartheid state.

+1billion to TK

Masada,

First give back your land to Aborigines, and only then criticize Israel for not giving back their land to Palestinians.

Why you asserted this to Masada? gosh, if that is the case he more than able to claim right to Hawai or New Zealand to give his peoples a political platform to exercise Polynesian government aka Polynesian state, using that very logic that you used. The world is really full of European government, time to give other natives especially the Polynesian their own political platform to make Polynesian state.

The Jews doesn't need another Jewish state if we consider both the American government and the former Sovyet already Jew enough. But there are no government that Polynesian enough, aborigine enough or Palestinian enough.
 
Speaking Arab does not render one Arab, just as much as Latin American who speaks Spanish is not a Spaniard. The Arab identity was until recently limited to the Arabian peninsula. It is a political project, like European integration.

Hummm, I think you are mixing the notion of Arab and Pan-Arabism. Arab as a culture (based on a language among other things) does indeed exist and defines basically the people living between the Gulf and the Ocean (as it is some time referred to the Arab world). In this region people in majority do have Arabic as their native language, though in the fringes of the AW (Arab World), there are other important native languages like berber in Morocco or Kurdish in Iraq. But that does not remove the fact that many still feel being part of the Arab culture (like an Alsacian who speaks Alsacian will still consider himself to be French).
It is undeniable that even in the 14th century people living in place outside the Arab peninsula were refering to themselves as being Arabs (see Ibn Khaldoun books for that for example).
Pan-Arabism on the other hand is the "theorisation" of the Arab Nation as a political project and that is as you suggested new. It actually was theorised in the end of the 19th century begining of the 20th (like many other "nationalism" including Zionism) by Michel Aflak notably.

However, European integration doesn't pose the liability to minorities and neighbouring countries as Modern Pan-Arabism did to Iran, Turkey, Israel and blacks in Sudan and Kurds in Iraq.

Pan-arabism as a political project didn't really succeed. It was just impossible to achieve given the undemocratic nature of almost all Arab regimes, the Cold War and the Israeli Palestinian conflict. It was very often used by dictators as a chimere (like the Bolivarian revolution in Latin america now). I however don't really think those liabilities you are refering to are "pan arabism" related, but really state related.

In fact, Saddam Hussein sought to make Iraq view itself more as Mesopotamian instead of Arabic. Likewise, there are movements in Lebanon which stress Lebanon's Phoenician identity.

I know, I am tunisian, and in Tunisia there are also people who want to put our Carthaginian and Roman heritage up front. That being said, people do not claim they are not Arabs but that they are not ONLY Arabs. I am Tunisian, I am an Arab, but I am not Libyan and even less Omani or Saudi, though I share with them my Arab culture. Think of it like Europe again. Most importantly, I don't want to be part of the same country as Omani or Libyen. I don't share with them the "common destiny" in its political sense. I am an Arab but I definetly am against pan-arabism.

No, Emir Faisal did not consider Palestinians to be Arabs at all, nor anyone living to the west of the Red sea, too boot. His descendents would later claim parts of Palestine as part of Jordan, that much is true.

Emir Faisal is referring to a very old distinction between "Arab Maaribaa" and "Arab moustaaribaa". It refers to the tribes that have always spoke Arabic and those who adopted later (mainly after the spread of Islam). Most Palestinian are of the latter group (well at least that's what Emir Faisal must think (he being the grand grand .... son of the Prophet is definitely from the former).
Faisal opinion on this won't matter at all to be honest as Palestinian are most definitely Arabs (in the cultural sense). Now Kurds on the other hand ?


The root of all problems is that the institution (namely, Israel) capable of taking charge of the situation have been rendered powerless under international consensus. Every Palestinian faction (I include the Jewish settlers as one for the sake of simplicity, alongside the PLO and Hamas) is armed to the teeth and will fight to the death with each other. Not really a recipe for a healthy state. It is not really true Somalia is completely anarchistic: Rather, the government struggles with organisations that seek governmental control over Somalia. It will be also the case in any conceivable Palestinian state.
And let's face it: The settlers cannot be removed from West Bank without triggering a civil war. While their presence is formally illegal, it is rarely mentioned that Palestinians who voluntarily relinquish territory are punishable by death. The west nevertheless buys the logic of the Arab states due to its economic ties, though from a dispassionate perspective, you will have to admit there settlements are a fait accompli.

1. I do not understand the bolded part. What do you think Israel should do that the International Community is not allowing it to do?

2. on the italic: well that is the problem, I know they are a fait accompli that is making the problem unsolvable every day (if it ever was solvable).

I am really curious to know what would you do if you were the President of Israel, and what will you do if you were the President of PA?
 
haroon said:
Why you asserted this to Masada?

Masada is from Australia as well.

TK said:
Our indigenous peoples have full citizenship, access to government services, freedom of movement

Yes but only since about 1980.

Before that you were kidnapping children from native families and doing other nasty things to Aborigines.

"Lost generations" and such.

The Jews doesn't need another Jewish state if we consider both the American government and the former Sovyet already Jew enough.

Great, Judeo-Bolshevik theories again. And Obama is of course Jewish. From Nigeria but Jewish.

But there are no government that Polynesian enough, aborigine enough or Palestinian enough.

Let's have a look at Europe and Asia Minor first - there is no Kurdish state, there is no Catalan state, there is no Basque state.

What are Europeans going to do about this?

And in the USA there is no Native American state. In Britain there is no independent Wales. In Germany Sorbs have no state.

And Northern Ireland is still occupied by England, despite all efforts of IRA, IRLA, INA, etc.

=======================================

List of active separatist movements in Europe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...eparatist_movements_in_the_European_Union.png

Active_separatist_movements_in_the_European_Unio.png


Funny that no separatist movements in Ukraine are marked, considering what is now taking place there.

And in Western Belarus and Southern Lithuania there is also significant Polish population.
 
The Jews doesn't need another Jewish state if we consider both the American government and the former Sovyet already Jew enough. But there are no government that Polynesian enough, aborigine enough or Palestinian enough.

hahaha
 
Domen said:
Masada is from Australia as well.
Masada's not. Masada is an Australian. But he's not from here at all.

Domen said:
First give back your land to Aborigines, and only then criticize Israel for not giving back their land to Palestinians.

I find it amusing that I'm being told how I should treat Indigenous peoples.

Domen said:
Yes but only since about 1980.

That's incorrect.

Domen said:
Great, Judeo-Bolshevik theories again. And Obama is of course Jewish. From Nigeria but Jewish.

That's a close paraphrase of something Kaiserguard said which makes the response... even more amusing.
 
It's on, people. Domen apparently wants Medieval Europe to come back like a badly resurrected Frankenstein.

Second time as a farce.
 
Domen apparently wants Medieval Europe to come back like a badly resurrected Frankenstein.

No, I don't really want the Holy Roman Empire to get resurrected. Let Germany stay confined to its current little place.

I find it amusing that I'm being told how I should treat Indigenous peoples.

In English language you have "you" for one person and also "you" for many people. I noticed that this causes a lot of confusion.

Time to change this, I guess.

That's incorrect.

Since about 1970 ???

Masada's not. Masada is an Australian. But he's not from here at all.

Ok, I got used to American-Scots, Bosnian-Germans, etc. Whom else do we have on this forum? Where do you live, may I ask? :p
 
Our indigenous peoples have full citizenship, access to government services, freedom of movement, and don't generally get their houses bulldozed without permission to build mansions for Anglos.

Palestinians under occupation have none of these things.

Last I checked, Aborigines do not attack Anglo-Australian citizens nor is Australia involved in a complex conflict with the Aborigines who are supported by say, Indonesia and almost every other country in the "neighbourhood".

Besides, if I didn't stop my kids from committing terrorism I'd consider myself responsible for everything what will happen to my family in response. Having your home buildozed is fairly light response for failing to condemn murderous tendencies of those you are responsible of.

I know, I am tunisian, and in Tunisia there are also people who want to put our Carthaginian and Roman heritage up front. That being said, people do not claim they are not Arabs but that they are not ONLY Arabs. I am Tunisian, I am an Arab, but I am not Libyan and even less Omani or Saudi, though I share with them my Arab culture. Think of it like Europe again. Most importantly, I don't want to be part of the same country as Omani or Libyen. I don't share with them the "common destiny" in its political sense. I am an Arab but I definetly am against pan-arabism.

That may be true, however, the Lebanese Phoenicianists actually actively consider themselves Non-Arabs, besides Phoenicians. Speaking of which, Lebanese probably have more in common with Israelis than Tunisians and Moroccans.

Anyway, I might be arguing too much from Westphalian perspective, so I withdraw my conclusions about Arabs, Arabism and the Arab peninsula.

1. I do not understand the bolded part. What do you think Israel should do that the International Community is not allowing it to do?

2. on the italic: well that is the problem, I know they are a fait accompli that is making the problem unsolvable every day (if it ever was solvable).

I am really curious to know what would you do if you were the President of Israel, and what will you do if you were the President of PA?

Israel should annex West Bank and Gaza, since it is the political entity best able to keep the peace in the region, both to the interests of Jews and Palestinians. Also, if the 'apartheid' wall can save human lives, it is worth it, no matter the economic damage it has caused.

The question whether I would do if I were the president of Israel or PA is irrelevant, because neither are powerful enough to significantly change the political landscape: Israel's president is by constitution a figurehead while Mahmoud Abbas has too many rivals to be effectively in power. I feel that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be easier to solve if both sides were autocracies, not bound by any bureaucratic notions of international law or internal turmoil.

While I am not principally opposed to a Palestinian right of return or to a binational state, it would have to be constructed as such that it would still be a guaranteed sanctuary for Jews. It would not be democratic, though not totalitarian North Korea-style either. Aside from the formalities of international law, another reason why resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian is unfeasible is because of the overly democratic character of both polities, and political power in both sides is vested in ignorant masses instead of people who truly are capable and willing to maintain peace.
 
Since about 1970 ???

Citizenship in 1949 (same as all Australians; before that they were British subjects), Universal suffrage in 1962 (1965 in Queensland because Queensland), repeal of discriminatory constitutional provisions in 1967

Last I checked, Aborigines do not attack Anglo-Australian citizens nor is Australia involved in a complex conflict with the Aborigines

The history of Aboriginal resistance to colonial rule is rich and bloody and the reasons there is no declared Aboriginal state in an armed conflict with the Commonwealth of Australia are 1) Aboriginals being heavily outnumbered by non-indigenous Australians in their ancestral lands, 2) Aboriginals having full Australian citizenship and more or less integrated into the wider Australian society, and 3) there are effective legal means of pursuing grievances against the Australian government.

If Aboriginals are treated as the Palestinians in occupation are now and they have the numbers and resources to challenge the Australian state, they will, and probably in a far more ferocious and determined manner than the Palestinians are doing.

Ok, I got used to American-Scots, Bosnian-Germans, etc. Whom else do we have on this forum? Where do you live, may I ask? :p

I am a Sino-Thai Melburnian. Masada is a Maori Australian from the Northern Territory by way of New Zealand.

Let's have a look at Europe and Asia Minor first - there is no Kurdish state, there is no Catalan state, there is no Basque state.

What are Europeans going to do about this?

And in the USA there is no Native American state. In Britain there is no independent Wales. In Germany Sorbs have no state.

Kurds: political lobbying and armed resistance continuing
Catalans: referendum planned
Basques: political lobbying continuing and terrorist campaigns until recently
Native Americans: fought colonialists for four centuries
Welsh: has self-government
Sorbs: regularly assert their identity even though mostly assimilated
Northern Ireland: fascinatingly complicated

In all cases: have full citizenship in the countries they live in

Do you seriously not get how people who are treated as full citizens might feel different from people who are not?

The question whether I would do if I were the president of Israel or PA is irrelevant, because neither are powerful enough to significantly change the political landscape: Israel's president is by constitution a figurehead while Mahmoud Abbas has too many rivals to be effectively in power.

But the Prime Minister of Israel isn't a figurehead. The Israeli government is far from powerless. The international community? Israel has ignored every UN resolution regarding the Palestinian issue and continued occupation despite near-universal condemnation. Armed groups? Israel has an invincible military. Popular opinion? Most Israelis want peace. Settlement construction can stop right now and negotiation produce a lasting agreeemt within a couple of years if the Israeli government takes a principled stand and actually commit itself to peace.
 
Great, Judeo-Bolshevik theories again. And Obama is of course Jewish. From Nigeria but Jewish.



Let's have a look at Europe and Asia Minor first - there is no Kurdish state, there is no Catalan state, there is no Basque state.

What are Europeans going to do about this?

And in the USA there is no Native American state. In Britain there is no independent Wales. In Germany Sorbs have no state.

And Northern Ireland is still occupied by England, despite all efforts of IRA, IRLA, INA, etc.

I used all of that as a sarcasm as I intend to from the very beginning, for the argument that Jewish state need to be Establish because we don't have one of that while the Palestinian can be kick out to any given Arab state, the world is full with the Arabs state but not with Jewish state.

And now the Palestinian become a stranger in their own mother-land as TK stated, and you try to compare them with other natives in other nations and countries?
 
That may be true, however, the Lebanese Phoenicianists actually actively consider themselves Non-Arabs, besides Phoenicians. Speaking of which, Lebanese probably have more in common with Israelis than Tunisians and Moroccans.

Phoenicianist that consider themselves to be just phoenician are like hard core "bretons" in Brittany who consider themselves to be just Bretons and not french, they do exist but they can be counted on one hand. Really. Now what is more common is culturally arabs people who insist in saying that they are ethnically not Arabs (again like Berber in Morocco or Copte in Egypt).
And there is definetly more in common between Lebanese and Tunisian than between Lebanese and Israeli, well unless the Israeli is of Lebanese origin.

Anyway, I might be arguing too much from Westphalian perspective, so I withdraw my conclusions about Arabs, Arabism and the Arab peninsula.

No worries. It is still interesting to have the Westphalian perspective :)

Israel should annex West Bank and Gaza, since it is the political entity best able to keep the peace in the region, both to the interests of Jews and Palestinians.

and gives citizenship to everyone living there?


Also, if the 'apartheid' wall can save human lives, it is worth it, no matter the economic damage it has caused.

I thinks the Wall, terrorism, couter terrorism, collateral damage, check points, etc are all "second" subjects. As long as there is no solution we'll always have that. The point is finding a solution is supposed to solve all above subjects (well at least subsantantially).

The question whether I would do if I were the president of Israel or PA is irrelevant, because neither are powerful enough to significantly change the political landscape: Israel's president is by constitution a figurehead while Mahmoud Abbas has too many rivals to be effectively in power.

Apologies I meant Prime Minister for Israel. Basically if you were in charge of one side or the other what will you do?

I feel that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be easier to solve if both sides were autocracies, not bound by any bureaucratic notions of international law or internal turmoil.

Waou, would you support a solution imposed by the International community (Geneva style)? (USA/Europe/China/India for example)?

While I am not principally opposed to a Palestinian right of return or to a binational state, it would have to be constructed as such that it would still be a guaranteed sanctuary for Jews. It would not be democratic, though not totalitarian North Korea-style either. Aside from the formalities of international law, another reason why resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian is unfeasible is because of the overly democratic character of both polities, and political power in both sides is vested in ignorant masses instead of people who truly are capable and willing to maintain peace.

What else apart from the "guaranteed sanctuary for Jews" should remain outside of a democratic Israel/Palestine ?
 
and gives citizenship to everyone living there?

Yes. Though before anything of this should be attempted, there should be an elite legislative chamber who shall have the power to elect the Israeli president, and is similar to the British House of Lords. It would include the Chief Rabbinate, former Israeli presidents, senior Israeli military figures and all the local Christian and Islamic leaders (i.e. the Armenian patriarch, the Grand Mufti) operating in Israel and Palestine. Basically, its goal would be to protect the fundamental characteristics of the holy land, maintain peace between the communities and veto any legislation bourne from popular sentiment that may threaten such.

Apologies I meant Prime Minister for Israel. Basically if you were in charge of one side or the other what will you do?

If I had complete control over Israel, I would - aside from creating the Upper House - offer the Arab countries to take back all the Palestinian refugees in exchange for complete sovereignty over Palestine. Israel's status as Jewish sanctuary would be guaranteed by the Upper House anyway, so I wouldn't fear the political changes caused by the return of the Palestinian refugees.

If I had complete control over Palestine, I would repeal the infamous land law and legalise the settlements and attempt to convince the settlers to view themselves as Palestinians instead of Israelis. I would impose very strict gun control laws to prevent factionalisation of Palestinian and rivalry within. I would also create a Palestinian version of the Jewish law of return, that would only become an active law when Israel allows the Palestinian refugees to return.

Both are politically impossible of course, given the immense degree of factionalisation in both polities, brought about by nothing more than popular rage.

Waou, would you support a solution imposed by the International community (Geneva style)? (USA/Europe/China/India for example)?

Not necessarily. Yet another part of the problem is the undue attention it receives from other countries.

What else apart from the "guaranteed sanctuary for Jews" should remain outside of a democratic Israel/Palestine ?

There is a healthy respect for religion in both Israel and Palestine inherited from the Ottoman Empire, which is something I thoroughly admire of both polities.
 
Yes. Though before anything of this should be attempted, there should be an elite legislative chamber who shall have the power to elect the Israeli president, and is similar to the British House of Lords. It would include the Chief Rabbinate, former Israeli presidents, senior Israeli military figures and all the local Christian and Islamic leaders (i.e. the Armenian patriarch, the Grand Mufti) operating in Israel and Palestine. Basically, its goal would be to protect the fundamental characteristics of the holy land, maintain peace between the communities and veto any legislation bourne from popular sentiment that may threaten such.

OK, understood. though I don't know how would you do to "renew" this chamber and still guarantee it would always be "pro Jewish sanctuary", though I think a solution could be found.

If I had complete control over Israel, I would - aside from creating the Upper House - offer the Arab countries to take back all the Palestinian refugees in exchange for complete sovereignty over Palestine. Israel's status as Jewish sanctuary would be guaranteed by the Upper House anyway, so I wouldn't fear the political changes caused by the return of the Palestinian refugees.
If I had complete control over Palestine, I would repeal the infamous land law and legalise the settlements and attempt to convince the settlers to view themselves as Palestinians instead of Israelis. I would impose very strict gun control laws to prevent factionalisation of Palestinian and rivalry within. I would also create a Palestinian version of the Jewish law of return, that would only become an active law when Israel allows the Palestinian refugees to return.

what are the the infamous land law you are referring to?
and what about "jewish" factions? do you think you won't have any armed opposition from the jewish side?

Both are politically impossible of course, given the immense degree of factionalisation in both polities, brought about by nothing more than popular rage.

Oh, what would a possible solution look like than?

Not necessarily. Yet another part of the problem is the undue attention it receives from other countries.

I don't really agree on this, but let's not discuss side problem, we have enough on our hands :lol:

There is a healthy respect for religion in both Israel and Palestine inherited from the Ottoman Empire, which is something I thoroughly admire of both polities.

I think it's also because the "rules" were defined to the finest details possible. though one need to remember that "religious" incidents do happen (among christians factions mainly by the way)
 
OK, understood. though I don't know how would you do to "renew" this chamber and still guarantee it would always be "pro Jewish sanctuary", though I think a solution could be found.

Many members of the upper house would by such by right (i.e. being a religious leader, a former president). A significant part would be appointed by other members from the house itself. So it is fundamentally undemocratic and unelected, though thats exactly the purpose.

what are the the infamous land law you are referring to?
and what about "jewish" factions? do you think you won't have any armed opposition from the jewish side?

The one that perscribes death penalty to Palestinians who sell land. And yes that of the armed opposition would apply as much to the settlers as to the vying Palestinian factions.

Oh, what would a possible solution look like than?

As long as both Israel and Palestinian media machines paint the other side as pure evil, there will never be a politically solution. No system rewards greedy and dishonourable behavior more than democracy.

I think it's also because the "rules" were defined to the finest details possible. though one need to remember that "religious" incidents do happen (among christians factions mainly by the way)

You can never completely make it go away, though you can destroy some major causes. The Ottoman era was also marked by the decentralisation of the community, which has largely become something impossible due to the importance of news media: Everything has become everyone's concern and that engenders conflicts.
 
Many members of the upper house would by such by right (i.e. being a religious leader, a former president). A significant part would be appointed by other members from the house itself. So it is fundamentally undemocratic and unelected, though thats exactly the purpose.



The one that perscribes death penalty to Palestinians who sell land. And yes that of the armed opposition would apply as much to the settlers as to the vying Palestinian factions.



As long as both Israel and Palestinian media machines paint the other side as pure evil, there will never be a politically solution. No system rewards greedy and dishonourable behavior more than democracy.



You can never completely make it go away, though you can destroy some major causes. The Ottoman era was also marked by the decentralisation of the community, which has largely become something impossible due to the importance of news media: Everything has become everyone's concern and that engenders conflicts.

So you think no possible solution can come from inside and you seem to oppose imposed solution from outside, what kind of alternative do you propose?
what would you do if you were a palestinian from Gaza or an israeli from Sderot?

and the land law is not really that strange in this conflict as controling the land is the key element. Settlement creates "fait accompli" as you said above, so the PA is trying to prevent it before happening. In Israel, land grabbing is not very different, the JA is having the same kind of policy where it is forbidden to sell lands to non jews. Weird, but in the Holy Land, this is "regular" stuff ;)
 
Apparently Israel continued construction on 14,000 housing units in illegal settlements during this most recent round of peace talks.

Wow.
 
Apparently Israel continued construction on 14,000 housing units in illegal settlements during this most recent round of peace talks.

Wow.

The last time a city was divided it worked out real well for it. :rolleyes: Jerusalem will never be divided again and those areas "inside" the West Bank, both sides have agreed will be inside Jewish Territory should Palestinians give up their silly demands.

@TK, but those territories were never going to be considered as Israeli and thus they would never be given the option of citizenship because they should have been citizens of a Palestinian country, but the Arabs said no. So the fact they aren't citizens of a country is the fault of Arabs, not Israel.
 
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