Trump creates biggest foreign policy &#$@-up possible with just word and no actions.

OK nutty conspiracy time: what if Trump's grotesque support of the Israeli far right sionist wing, is the only platform from which actual process in peace talks is possible? Israel clearly don't care one iota about international criticism. Nor do they care when the criticism is coming from the white house (Obama). As long as an american congressional majority is flying an unconditional Israeli endorsement, Bibi is laughing all the way to the blood bank.
So what if Trump is actually positioning himself in the only place where he can hold any real sway over Netanyahu's government, and thus initiate progress in peace talks?

Like I said, it's nutty indeed, but think about it.

Not so nutty if you leave out any speculation about D'ump's intent. This might set up such a stupendously obvious disaster that the Israeli far right party loses control of the US, which could lead to the US leaving Israel to work out their problems other than by threat of US intervention, and that might actually lead to peace...either before or after the destruction of Israel. While such a series of events is possible, it would involve the collapse and repudiation of Trumpism in the US as well, so it is certainly not D'ump's intent.
 
And setting the stage for an American-Shino War (aka World War III) if Trump makes the first move against Korea.

Trump probably doesn't want a crazy world-wide war. That would eat into profits (and profits of his family and friends) so he's probably trying to avoid something like that at all costs. Plus you don't want to be remembered as the crazy president who started WW3. I think he wants to be a guy who is remembered for being an amazing president, who did amazing things, without killing too many people in the process

I don't expect the next move to be sensible, but IMO the ball is still pretty much in NK's court. All Trump is going to do is react to stuff.. So hopefully not too many "provocations" by NK while Trump is still in office
 
Trump probably doesn't want a crazy world-wide war. That would eat into profits (and profits of his family and friends) so he's probably trying to avoid something like that at all costs. Plus you don't want to be remembered as the crazy president who started WW3. I think he wants to be a guy who is remembered for being an amazing president, who did amazing things, without killing too many people in the process

I don't expect the next move to be sensible, but IMO the ball is still pretty much in NK's court. All Trump is going to do is react to stuff.. So hopefully not too many "provocations" by NK while Trump is still in office
Yeah but all that requires foresight, which Dumble Trump is incapable of.....
 
So is cause and effect something you recognize, or...?
Calling this cause and effect is not only ridiculous, it's also a disgusting case of dehumanization of the people who would react to a country taking a political position with violence. While I agree that it is not an advisable position to take, phrasing it like Trump is the only actor in this and everything after that is just a chain of causality of objects doing what they have to do, and claiming that his political statement actually means that he has killed people, and not the people who will actually kill people as a reaction to the position that America has taken, is just disingenuous.

It's as idiotic as saying that Angela Merkel has raped German Citizens because she was the one who decided to let in Millions of refugees, some of whom then went on to rape German citizens. Phrasing it like that is obvious sensationalist BS, as was the case when Cutlass did the same thing in his OP.

If person A does something that in itself has not the effect of killing people, but is likely to cause person B, C, and D to go mental and kill people, then person A is not killing people, person B, C, and D are. It's reasonable to call person A out on their actions if the cost-benefit-analysis is negative, but to claim that they have killed people is just dumb. Person B, C, and D are the ones doing the killing.
 
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oh it's merely the clock ticking and nothing to worry about . After all the brightest of the West have been denied the end of the world for , what's it , 1000 years ? And the OP is of course wrong , it's in the Bible or something that only 144 000 will survive . BSS has killed like 10 million people in the West , much better that's matched by a 100 million in the East .


edit of Wednesday , December 13th

Spoiler :


the world is ready for the 3rd of its wars , one of those great brilliant ideas that nothing go but according to the plan ... Oh yeah , even the wastage of the ISIL vermin gets hailed as a victory . Instead of creating a 'stan from the Caspian to the Mediterranean with the attendant destruction of Iran and whatever remained of Turkey , the West is reduced to mumbling . And chose to revert back to the thing that never fails , Israel never getting a slap on the wrist despite apllying small scale Holocausts and stuff on the Palestinians and fully supported by a Washington which is otherwise anti-Semite to the brim . Allow me avoid the blah blah on how Fundamentalism running so deep would burn every synagogue in the US to push every single Jew to the Holy Land and stuff so that they can be all anhilated there . As said at height of ISIL , we Turks will not be there to see it , being totally processed at gas chambers and the lot , this time handled by AI wherever necessary , for first being demonseed and second having some humanity and hiding / saving them Jews like always . The turbaned schoolgirls who hotly debate to find meaning in yours idiotly ? This is a reference to 1492 and the like and includes the notion people of the book , now that CFC deleted my relevant post and stuff on the historical development of stuff on why the West loves to see you and the Jews one and the same , since the times of Queen Victoria , ı think in 2010 . While womens' status has somewhat improved from the days when she ruled as one of the best known female leaders of all time (only because there was no suitable male heir) as Turks you don't count as human and whatever mental prowess you might show will be attributed to Jews hiding amongst you . Just like you are taught the Republic of 1923 was a smokescreen for them Jews . At "home" if not in school . Those of you who will survive the extermination of the Turkish Race and let's say none of your unscarved classmates will make it , will be expected to teach that to their offspring , was so and so and people deserved that ...


oh yeah , there's the Russian comeback which is indeed a contributing factor to the war mongering . The Clinton years were euphoric , America the only superpower , godlike as the phrase goes . People cooled from the vigours of war , no need to be the rare victim if whatever Washington ordered would be done anyhow . When there's the unease Uncle Sam might be laughed at his face , oh my , it's back to chest banging . There's some magazine trawled from the net in which some USAF officer says an F-22 fighting an F-22 is negative training . Was essentially right in the days of Phantoms , even Tomcats and the like : because when you are flying against a squadronmate , you both are drawing from the same pool of knowledge , knowing the limits of the mount you are relaxed in a way . When the bogey is flying something else , something you don't know like the back of the hand , even if in Turkish we use that phrase as the "inside" of the hand , you might get surprised . Like Americans trying to turn with MiG-17s in Vietnam and like that , despite being all being familiar with Sabres and the like still in American service . Perhaps understandable , the manual for a Phantom must be 500 or 600 pages , weapons systems a seperate 460 and no flight sims on the laptop either . A pilot needs so much time in the air just to safely fly without getting himself killed and the plane destroyed that he has so little chance to train . Aggressor squadrons as a result , flying planes as enemies of America are expected to fly , giving valuable experience , living through a war without in being war . And being different to the norms , it forces the trainees to be ready for surprises , keep their eyes open , take nothing for granted . So , why is a thing that was right in 1980 is wrong by 2020 ? Because having a "Red" F-22 in the air in exercise is assuming the Reds have temerity to be able to make a plane that can match America's best . Yeah , absurd to imagine that can ever happen . Like in 1972 when Americans are swatting MiGs like flies and keep hopes high for the F-15 and yet already debating the need for Stealth in a fighter jet , because their new fangled LGBs still need penetration of not only hostile but defended airspace . Takes like 15 years to arrive at a suitable shape that does not actually stop radar returns as Stealth is like supposed to , but limits them to few chosen angles so that sedentary , bus driving kind of flight management keeps the risks down . And guess what , Russians or the Chinese have no brains to think as much , despite having read it on the web , you know , just like your idiotly does . Oh no , a "Red" F-22 is an insult to the god given US right to be the the pinnacle of human achievement . Instead they need 4 to 5 times the bogeys for each '22 , you know 20 bandits for a typical 4 ship . T-38s as they do not have enough F-5s and F-5 is an aggressor everywhere in the world these days , because everybody has seen Top Gun and it feels right ...

so , while ı would doubt that was the intention some random thread elsewhere on the web and some guy writes a learned post on how the West would survive the worst . With an historical reference to South Africans . Under arms embargo for Apartheid and facing Cubans in Angola without the typical bag of tricks the Western pilot fights with . No Awacs , no Combat Tree , not even BVR advantage and that has only ever resulted in only one Mirage F-1 being hit and just damaged . It was operating form an austere location and stuff happened and got out of the runway and the pilot ejected and broke his back , becoming crippled since then . Lost but still not shot down . See , nothing to worry about , considering the South Africans after dat fielded helmet mounted sights with much bigger engined AAMs , like an advance of 20 years on American flying services . Oh , a veritable shtstorm ensues . Trolls abound as always and they jump in , simply because no loser can ever actually succeed in hitting a white man air to air . Dragging in more respectable posters who laugh at the allegation that Brits would be the first understand the troubles of the South Africans , that longer range missiles are troublesome if you are the one fired upon . Now , this is the May Day fight or something when the hostilities in Falklands began , with two Mirage IIIs firing ineffective weapons on two Sea Harriers and henceforth not involved or something in the fighting . Osprey books , talking to both sides like 35 years later , correct whatever misconception might be in that and the guy speaks of shredding Harriers with a weapon Mirage did not have anyhow . Relevant to the thread here in CFC only because the Western mind needs conspiracy no matter what . As in Israel to gloriously invade Lebanon just 9 years after they and Arabs kinda brought the world to the brink of nuclear extinction and them Israelis need a distraction and London gives them one . Every woman Prime Minister needs a war in which she can prove she is manlier and Thatcher is confident , especially after them frogs give them all the stuff Brits might need , like all kinds of signals an Exocet squawks as it tears down onto its target . That's why apparently it's a big thing in the UK whether the missile's warhead that hit HMS Sheffield exploded or not . It "didn't" , because the Iron Lady had the codes and it would have been much worse if she hadn't been so amazingly brilliant to get them and RN hacked the missile not to explode . Yeah , yeah ı know Exocet has an impact fuse , but pray tell , would Joe Public know as well ? No problems until now ? Good . Because Israelis must be like walking on the water , because the Fundemantalists need every Jew down there , after trusting to be safe . So that they can all be cut down and stuff , more stuff happens . This time meant for the professionals . Thus ask single enthuasist and he /she will tell you that 2 British Sea Harriers collided in bad weather early on in the war ; the most recent Osprey title adds the RN stopped long range Harrier ops after that and stuff as they were taking place out of the radar coverage of the Fleet . No , sir , it would be much cooler if some Israelis came and shot them down . Say , like Asher Snir , who happens to be a cult figure or something for the USAF of the 1970s . An ace in the Mirage , while no recent American pilot can claim an equal amount of success , now in transition training in the US for the Phantom . Wipes the floor with his instructors ; so that USAF can avoid accepting that the hated USN had already discovered you could dogfight with the Phantom , like wall to wall , you know , by 1968 . More importantly an attitude that mission comes first and stuff so that all nearby USAF pilots can have a canard to "lack" discipline . At home ; those in Vietnam and Thailand are already using their combat status to flaunt stuff and calling themselves the Iron Majors , because they are cool . And if questioned , Snir is amongst the example given as answer . Though when he is asked to bear the mantle , he point blank refuses now that every sane Israeli knows they will be thrown out to the wolves when there's no more need . And Dagger with Shafrir III or whatever is a no-go . Somebody then remembers the Israelis are also using Skyhawks and it becomes the turn of a souped up A-4 . Hearing all this , USN agggressors love the idea and "Mongoose" is the real life result . A super-duper A-4 that can have a thrust /weight ratio of 1.0 at times , but F-16N is still better . People who laugh at Mirages downing Harriers with missiles ? Back in 1982 it was made up as a single A-4 gunning them down . In the School of Americas , on which ı have never heard anything positive where people edged Argentinians on with promises London was spent . To keep the game on , just as Reagan was moving a carrier to cover the Brits if something went wrong . Neoliberalism always favours the Richer and Falklands did a lot for Thatcher , until you know , she came up with the poll tax . Funnily the Brits do not know the only right of the poor is to support the rich with taxes and the lot .

lost ? No point , it's the iron rule of the Western thinking that Tel Aviv can not go wrong , as if 2006 or 2008 took place in the Andromeda Galaxy . Everybody will remember Israel bombs kids at home a la Gazze like any day only when no more Jews are left in the West .

with this in mind the person to watch in New Turkey is Metiner , an MP of the Party . When Congregation was paving the way and Party just had to look so modern , so Western to speak , he was the guy on that channel as Erbakan (the super-funny-at-times leader of the first generation Islamists) had died . Metiner kinda remembered the old days when he was too an activist in the ranks . That trees and bushes at the end of world . Jews , opposing God for so long , have it coming for them . To no avail ; even bushes sway to opposite sides . Can't remember if the branches of trees point to Jews hiding . So that good Muslims of the end of the world do not get too much tired searching and kill every one of them . ı must have been 18 when ı read that in some book on Islamic traditions for Apococalips or however you spell that . Was confused about a week or two , with the typical fear of the Muslim to challenge authority "coming" from the Prophet . Finally figured the so called Muslim scholars included some of the biggest liars of all times . They were neither scholars , nor Muslim and possibly both negatives at the same time ; ı sincerely doubt Hz. Muhammed would ever "promise" a thing that would have been the envy of Adolf Hitler . Actually Metiner said it was bogus and guess what , for once ı will take his word . Oh yeah , now that the trees are back in the narrative , will Metiner appear on TV and say nothing of the sort will happen ? But than this is something girls in school , headscarved or not , should avoid discussing ; not suitable even for boys , ı guess .

though it's not all despair (at least) for the Americans . After Lockmart's "claims" that they were setting up people with the anectodes that Footpad could not stay with F-16D-40 with two fuel tanks under the wings , USAF pilots who are paid to think like MiG drivers are photographed in a D-30 , in company with an F-117 (even if no longer in service) with a honking big IR pod on the Falcon ... What's dat , are you suggesting the enemy ist schmarter than given credit for ? (For those who are not into aviation , Block 30 of the F-16s are like the most agile of the genre ... )
 
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Israel has a non-expiring core on Jerusalem, as far as I'm concerned.
 
I do not agree with Israel's repression of the Palestinians, though this is just a recognition of fait accompli that is long overdue. And the EU will eventually follow suit, despite criticisms. The Israeli side of the Green line could just as well be redefined to include the Jerusalem muncipal borders. All products from the Palestinian side of the Green Line should then be labelled as Palestinian, or else boycotted, to force the settlers to either leave West-Bank or integrate with the Palestinian polis.
 
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uhm , not exactly on topic but completes the rant of mine above . Seems there's a reason to the F-16 trials .

Spoiler :
See , American planes interfere with the operations in Syria a lot , having shot down one even . So , back in October , 25th to be precise , Russians or Chinese but not the North Koreans invade ... America ... at least American airspace . Nowhere else you will see the claim but whatever . Apparently some airliner pilot sees a white plane in the air , might be 737 size or maybe it's not . Now , to prevent planes running into each other , there are systems onboard every passenger airliner that is like some sort of a wireless that warn other planes , giving directions and distance . If you hear and see the alarm , there's a plane nearby and you should spot it and avoid colliding with it . So when the airliner guy clearly sees the white thing but nothing on is system , it's got to be a plane running drugs to Canada with on-board systems closed and hoping to avoid attention in the mass of flights that criss cross the USA . Civic duty , man , tells air traffic control there's something amiss . The trouble starts , with the air traffic failing to spot the evader . Calls on other planes to eyeball it , to get location , direction , altitude , all the stuff it needs to get that plane "arrested" . Allright , like dozens of planes become involved , but no , nothing on the radar . They are tracking it as much as the Brits would do overland in 1940 but no radar response from it . Police is already in the air , F-15s and oh my , because there was no need to install FLIR systems in the 1970s , they do have their own external pods . And while all the eyes are on it the white starts turning , changes a direction or two and F-15s end up on the other side US State and , just like dat , nothing . From eyewitness reports , if an airliner was to turn that hard the wings would come out of it , so probably the white is rated capable of more than 2.5 Gs . Of course , everybody expects it to be an American plane on some test , or a delivery flight to some secret site and not the Siberian Express and of course any not dumb USAF official would come on the airwaves and say "We have got this and thank you." and stuff and nobody would have noticed that . Instead , America brings old planes from some depot and fixes them with pods and all that . But then if a 737 can out turn an F-15 but can not an F-16 , what would a Su-27 sized white do ?


edit like 2 hours later :
And yes , the "revelation" that two Subpar Hornets flew against a disc in 2004 , with HUD footage to boot , is part of the same mindset . As part of the revelation that Pentagon has been like spending 55 million bucks on UFO hunting . You know , they went on with all sorts of lies after getting sure that they would not be able to find or even fake a WMD site in Iraq and neither "aliens" nor "angels" could stop them . As for authenticity of the HUD , well , it was last week ı saw the latest Star Wars movie and am ı like claiming everything seen there is real ? But don't worry , Lockmart's finest , F-35 , is actually capable of hunting them UFOs !
 
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Trump probably doesn't want a crazy world-wide war. That would eat into profits

Yeah, but it would give me something to do again.

So I haven't been in this thread for a while, have we covered the fact that the US has threatened to pull funding from the UN as a result of the 128-9 vote condemning the US for this move?
 
Yeah, but it would give me something to do again.

So I haven't been in this thread for a while, have we covered the fact that the US has threatened to pull funding from the UN as a result of the 128-9 vote condemning the US for this move?

I'm sure everyone is excited about the prospect of the US shooting itself in its soft power foot.
 
Yeah, but it would give me something to do again.

So I haven't been in this thread for a while, have we covered the fact that the US has threatened to pull funding from the UN as a result of the 128-9 vote condemning the US for this move?
What would be the point of that?
 
I'm not upset by this. Sure, Trump's reasons for doing this are not noble. Sure, there are a lot of evangelical nutcases in the US that see this as a step towards the Rapture or whatever.

But the action itself is not wrong. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and has been for a long time. And will remain so. The fact that some people don't like it has not changed it for decades and won't change it anytime soon.

This obsession with Muslim sensibilities is ridiculous and servile. Muslim cannon fodder might throw some rocks at Israeli soldiers, they might try to provoke reactions as they always do. But Muslim leaders of countries won't do anything because they couldn't care less about the Palestinians. The Palestinians are for everyone an excuse, not a real cause.
 
Muslim cannon fodder might throw some rocks at Israeli soldiers, they might try to provoke reactions as they always do. But Muslim leaders of countries won't do anything because they couldn't care less about the Palestinians. The Palestinians are for everyone an excuse, not a real cause.

Well, let's face it: Palestinians currently face a horrible proposition. They are discriminated against by Israel, and also by their fellow Arabs who claim they are helping them (particularly in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan).

This is hardly a religious issue, or even a national one. This is more a class-issue. The feudal Arab lords who ruled over much of their fellow Arabs in Palestine managed to get integrated by Israel or the neighbouring Arab countries. Their former subjects either fled, or had to put up with repression by the Israeli and also Arab countries.
 
Well, let's face it: Palestinians currently face a horrible proposition. They are discriminated against by Israel, and also by their fellow Arabs who claim they are helping them (particularly in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan).

This is hardly a religious issue, or even a national one. This is more a class-issue. The feudal Arab lords who ruled over much of their fellow Arabs in Palestine managed to get integrated by Israel or the neighbouring Arab countries. Their former subjects either fled, or had to put up with repression by the Israeli and also Arab countries.
I think Israel is the middle eastern country that better treats Palestinians (and religious minorities in general).

Also, I don't think this is a class issue, at least not mainly. Israel is an useful scapegoat and unifying enemy for all authoritarian Muslim countries, from Saudi Arabia to Turkey to Iran. For Muslim clerics, hatred towards Israel / Jews is great cause to to recruit cannon fodder and get financial donations.

None of them care about the Palestinians in the slightest. The amount of money that Arab and Muslim rulers spend on vanity crap (and not just the Gulf states, look at Sultan Erdogan and his new palace) could have ended the Palestinian plight many times over, at least the material part. But they don't want to. The suffering of Palestinians (both the real one and the imaginary one, which is bigger than the real) is very useful for them and so they would rather keep it going forever. Nobody gives a crap about Palestinians. The Palestinian cause is led by hypocrites and scumbags both in the Muslim world and in the West. Non-Muslim religious minorities in the Middle East have been the victims of an all-out genocide in many parts of the region in the last few years. There was slavery and extermination and mass rape. But what really upsets them is the recognition of the established fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? Give me a break. People who are upset by this are scum, and so it's good that they are upset.
 
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I think Israel is the middle eastern country that better treats Palestinians (and religious minorities in general).

Also, I don't think this is a class issue, at least not mainly. Israel is an useful scapegoat and unifying enemy for all authoritarian Muslim countries, from Saudi Arabia to Turkey to Iran. For Muslim clerics, hatred towards Israel / Jews is great cause to to recruit cannon fodder and get financial donations.

Not disputing that one, though it doesn't mean anything else surrounding the issue is justified.

The Palestinian cause is led by hypocrites and scumbags both in the Muslim world and in the West.

The Palestinian cause has been hijacked by antisemites, religious nutcases and straight-out fascists, though it still isn't wrong by definition because of it.

Non-Muslim religious minorities in the Middle East have been the victims of an all-out genocide in many parts of the region in the last few years. There was slavery and extermination and mass rape.

If you're are a non-privileged minority before a middle eastern country, you are royally screwed in general. And it is completely true that the Palestinians are not the only victims in this. Hell, even Non-European Jews face discrimination by Israel. And so do Arabs in Iran, Kurds in Syria, Armenians in Turkey.
 
Not disputing that one, though it doesn't mean anything else surrounding the issue is justified.
Of course not, but it calls into question this obsession with Israel and Palestinians that is displayed by all kinds of scumbags, from Saudi salafists to Iranian ayatollahs to Jeremy Corbyn.

The Palestinian cause has been hijacked by antisemites, religious nutcases and straight-out fascists, though it still isn't wrong by definition because of it.
The Palestinian cause is one of the biggest red flags on earth.

If you're are a non-privileged minority before a middle eastern country, you are royally screwed in general. And it is completely true that the Palestinians are not the only victims in this. Hell, even Non-European Jews face discrimination by Israel. And so do Arabs in Iran, Kurds in Syria, Armenians in Turkey.
Half of Israelis have non-European origin. It is a myth that Israelis are a bunch of European colonists. About half of them descend from Middle Eastern and North African Jews, who fled from persecution of their Muslim rulers and neighbors. The Israelis are a Middle Eastern people with roots in the Middle East.

And yes, there are far worse persecutions going on in the ME right now than that of the Palestinians. That Turkey or Iran feel they are entitled to criticize Israel at all is laughable. That Muslims should be upset about this recognition of a fait long accompli is pathetic. Only raving antisémites are upset. Let them be upset.
 
Of course not, but it calls into question this obsession with Israel and Palestinians that is displayed by all kinds of scumbags, from Saudi salafists to Iranian ayatollahs to Jeremy Corbyn.
to Donald Trump to Manuel Valls to etc...
 
B-but I thought Trump was a Nazi who hated Jews?

The way I look at this is: the Palestinians already lost this conflict. This whole "peace process" is a sham and everybody knows it. Unless other Arab countries invade Israel, the Palestinians are never going to get their land back from the Jews.

Trump is just doing what the last three presidents have been putting off.
 
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