Trump explained - because you all are blind

[Sommerswerd]

He can be both, you know.

I don't believe his total lack of concern for truth or facts is related to dementia. He has surely been that way his entire life. Dementia doesn't change who you are, not at first, but it does tend to magnify some pre-existing personality traits and reduce others, in part because it tends to reduce inhibition overall.

I think he is worse now, in terms of caring about the truth, being able to discern the truth, or in desiring to connect his opinions to facts. But yes, he has always been that way. I'm talking more about the fact that 30 years ago he came across like an educated adult, while now he comes across like a truculent fifth grader.

I agree with you that he can be both, but like @Timsup2nothin , I don't know about the dementia. However, I am certain he lies compulsively, about almost everything, all the time... and that he often tells lies about trivial things , lies when there is no real benefit to doing so, and tells lies that are demonstrably and obviously false. He also lies to paint himself in a more favorable light as both a victim and a hero, and he also tells lies that are fantastical and completely implausible.

@El_Machinae - He will not plead the Fifth. His narcissism coupled with his compulsion for lying will not allow him to miss such a fantastic opportunity to spectacularly perjure himself on such a grand stage.

 

[metalhead]

Trump actually testified under oath once, in a deposition for his defamation lawsuit, about precisely this topic - his propensity to tell falsehoods.

It's fascinating. He knows he's lying, every single time it appears. He understands that the bottom line never seems to match what he says. But he seems to have rationalized every single lie, big and small, in such a way that his "lies" appear to reflect a certain truth, to him if to nobody else. Not so useful when you're suing someone for defamation and the truth is an ironclad defense. But in post-truth politics, it's invaluable.

 

[Borachio]

I think Kim Jong-Un are made for each other.

In fact, they may well be the same person.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I think Kim Jong-Un are made for each other.

Kim Jong Un and who?

In fact, they may well be the same person.

I am quite sure that Kim Jong Un is the same person as Kim Jong Un

Or is he?

 

[Borachio]

Hahaha.

I'm losing it! If I haven't actually lost it completely.

I meant to say Kim Jung-Un and Trump.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Some nuggets from a recent Quinnipiac University poll of Americans on Donald Trump:

33% approve of his overall performance
62% say he's not honest
54% say they are embarrassed by Trump

34% believe he has good leadership skills
41% approve of his handling of the economy
These, to me, are the greatest indictments of his administration, because his supporters so often cited his experience as a businessman and an executive. It isn't a difference in values, or even a debate about whether a businessman is what the country needs; he's a disaster in the very things his supporters thought/claimed he would be good at.

 

[Sommerswerd]

But it doesn't matter as much what his polling is among all voters... we really need to see how these numbers look among Trump voters... because he won with the support of Trump voters not all voters, and could theoretically do so again.

 

[bernie14]

It seems like @metalhead is going with the former. I'm going with the latter... as in I think he can be clinically diagnosed as a pathological liar. @EgonSpengler posted some fact-check stats for us... but as we've already seen, to a Trump supporter, that's just dismissed as some combination of liberal commie globalist SJW Fake News, or similar...

I read two interesting articles on Vice and WaPo. The Vice article is written by someone who grew up with a parent who was a liar. My favorurite insight of the article is that with Trump, there won't be any change or redemption. Anyway here it is for anyone interested:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7xpb8x/what-my-father-the-pathological-liar-taught-me-about-trump

The WaPo article is about Trump facing a deposition and being caught in all his lies under oath by skilled attorneys:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/trump-lies/?utm_term=.519cd0d12939

FWIW my wife is an MD (not a psychiatrist) and she agrees that he's a pathological liar.

well counselor, im glad to see you phrased that as an opinion, since There is no consensus on the definition of pathological lying, referred to diagnostically as pseudologia fantastica. Furthermore, the condition is not recognized as a diagnosable disorder in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM). you see, even the best experty experts on this topic would just be providing an OPINION (and even moreso when it comes to motive)....does this mean that trump is not a pathological liar? not necessarily, just that your opinion does not make it true

He can be both, you know.

I don't believe his total lack of concern for truth or facts is related to dementia. He has surely been that way his entire life. Dementia doesn't change who you are, not at first, but it does tend to magnify some pre-existing personality traits and reduce others, in part because it tends to reduce inhibition overall.

I think he is worse now, in terms of caring about the truth, being able to discern the truth, or in desiring to connect his opinions to facts. But yes, he has always been that way. I'm talking more about the fact that 30 years ago he came across like an educated adult, while now he comes across like a truculent fifth grader.

I don’t think it has much to do with dementia at this point at least, I think it is more related to "putting the blinders on" in the face of adversity....defensiveness...just that people use different tactics, some people yell and stomp and others try to pat you on the head and tell you they know better....

 

[metatron]

"They all look the same!"

I call racism.
Par for Trump.^^

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Sometimes CNN gives you boths sides of the story. Which one you are on?

 

[metalhead]

But it doesn't matter as much what his polling is among all voters... we really need to see how these numbers look among Trump voters... because he won with the support of Trump voters not all voters, and could theoretically do so again.

Ipsos breaks down their approval polls by who the people being polled actually voted for, and Trump right now captures about 90% approval among those who voted for him. However, as always polling is slippery on questions like this, because it is documented that people will be untruthful regarding who they voted for when asked after the election. This is usually on account of having voted for the losing candidate, but it is also possible that people who voted for Trump are unwilling to own up to it after witnessing the disaster of his presidency.

Ipsos did provide some more concrete numbers from July.

So it's similar. Keep in mind though that, given the margin he won by, Trump can't afford to lose any voters if he isn't going to figure out how to bring other voters on board who didn't back him last time. So far his strategy has been geared exclusively towards holding his base, and he's obviously not going to pivot.

I don’t think it has much to do with dementia at this point at least, I think it is more related to "putting the blinders on" in the face of adversity....defensiveness...just that people use different tactics, some people yell and stomp and others try to pat you on the head and tell you they know better....

That doesn't explain his rather extreme loss of coherence when he speaks, his inability to communicate complete thoughts, or the fact that he jumps around randomly from topic to topic whenever he speaks. He used to speak coherently and intelligently, and now he doesn't. The fact that certain parts of his personality appear magnified isn't the only evidence, and I doubt there is a reasonable explanation for why he seems to have suffered a rather large cognitive decline as compared to a couple of decades ago.

 

[Hrothbern]

Ipsos did provide some more concrete numbers from July.

Voto quia absurdum

Moderator Action: CFC is an English-speaking forum. Please provide translations for all foreign texts. - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

ok
EDIT:
analog of the early Christan quote "credo quia absurdum" used to express that there is no logic or reasoning for believing in God other than faith.

Voto translates to: I vote
Intended meaning: the votes for Trump are apparently not really affected by opinions of others with rational arguments. The votes are based on faith in Trump.

 

[Hygro]

The only reason you can't understand, and why so many people share your exact sentiment... is because they are still clinging to the "and/or incurious" explanation out of a generous desire to give him some fig leaf of an excuse. Forget "incurious"... forget "ignorant"... The key word here is "pathological". Once you embrace that explanation all the confusion melts away and you will fully understand the lies. He is a pathological liar. He can't stop, won't stop, its a compulsion.

Pathological lying and BSing are two different forms of dishonesty. Trump is a BSer, it's a way of generating excitement which allows for manipulating outcomes. Pathological lying is weirder and won't get you this far.

edit: and then I saw Bernie's post.

 

[Sommerswerd]

well counselor, im glad to see you phrased that as an opinion, since There is no consensus on the definition of pathological lying, referred to diagnostically as pseudologia fantastica. Furthermore, the condition is not recognized as a diagnosable disorder in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM). you see, even the best experty experts on this topic would just be providing an OPINION (and even moreso when it comes to motive)....does this mean that trump is not a pathological liar? not necessarily, just that your opinion does not make it true

Doesn't make it false though either so your comment seems...I dunno. Everything we say on these threads is our opinion. Simply saying...

to an argument you disagree with isn't really a meaningful response... even if you put the word "opinion" in all caps. If you disagree with a position tell me why... don't just go all "The Dude" on me. I wiki-fu'd pathological liar and it seems to add up, so I'm satisfied with my definition. If you don't agree with me you're going to have to do better than citing to a blog article written by someone who isn't a doctor, that actually strengthens my point rather than refute it.

Anyway the blog you linked doesn't say that there's no such thing as pathological lying, it just says that people disagree on how to define it... which just strengthens my point, because if you look at the wikipedia synopsis of the different definitions... Trump fits all of them. So a lack of "consensus" on the definition is irrelevant since all the definitions apply to Trump. Furthermore, the part of the blog you quote about it not being in the DSM... that's a strawman. You know what else isn't in the DSM? Being a jerk. But we can still reach broad consensus that Trump is a jerk... lack of DSM diagnosis notwithstanding. Your point actually kind of contradicts your own argument, because by stating that its not in DSM, you're conceding that its not an "officially recognized" condition, which means that you can't claim any official medical standards for defining it anyway. So again, the DSM point is irrelevant.

Feel free to respond with another "well that's just like your opinion counselor"... BTW, I got called "counselor" by at least 12 different people today, including 3 judges and 2 State's Attorneys. Never gets old... I really love the way it sounds...has such a nice ring to it... so feel free to call me that as much as you like.

 

[Zkribbler]

BTW, I got called "counselor" by at least 12 different people today, including 3 judges and 2 State's Attorneys. Never gets old. I really love the way it sounds... has such a nice ring to it... so feel free to call me that as much as you like.

I commented once to one of my co-workers at the courthouse that I was sometimes mistaken for a judge. After that, being a sarky-kind of guy, when we'd pass in the hall, he'd sing out, "Good morning, Your Honor!" It was hard not to laugh as the posture of nearby attorneys suddenly improved.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Pathological lying and BSing are two different forms of dishonesty. Trump is a BSer, it's a way of generating excitement which allows for manipulating outcomes. Pathological lying is weirder and won't get you this far.

edit: and then I saw Bernie's post.

I don't know Hygs... I don't think pathological lying and BSing are mutually exclusive, do you? Trump can (and does) do both and chew gum at the same time. Plus I'd argue that a compulsive BS'er is pretty much the same thing as a pathological liar.

 

[bernie14]

Doesn't make it false though either so your comment seems...I dunno. Everything we say on these threads is our opinion. Simply saying...

to an argument you disagree with isn't really a meaningful response... even if you put the word "opinion" in all caps. If you disagree with a position tell me why... don't just go all "The Dude" on me. I wiki-fu'd pathological liar and it seems to add up, so I'm satisfied with my definition. If you don't agree with me you're going to have to do better than citing to a blog article written by someone who isn't a doctor, that actually strengthens my point rather than refute it.

Anyway the blog you linked doesn't say that there's no such thing as pathological lying, it just says that people disagree on how to define it... which just strengthens my point, because if you look at the wikipedia synopsis of the different definitions... Trump fits all of them. So a lack of "consensus" on the definition is irrelevant since all the definitions apply to Trump. Furthermore, the part of the blog you quote about it not being in the DSM... that's a strawman. You know what else isn't in the DSM? Being a jerk. But we can still reach broad consensus that Trump is a jerk... lack of DSM diagnosis notwithstanding. Your point actually kind of contradicts your own argument, because by stating that its not in DSM, you're conceding that its not an "officially recognized" condition, which means that you can't claim any official medical standards for defining it anyway. So again, the DSM point is irrelevant.

Feel free to respond with another "well that's just like your opinion counselor"... BTW, I got called "counselor" by at least 12 different people today, including 3 judges and 2 State's Attorneys. Never gets old... I really love the way it sounds...has such a nice ring to it... so feel free to call me that as much as you like.

so you are doubling down on agreeing with yourself about an opinion regarding a term that is not properly defined?

 

[El_Machinae]

Yes. And then he's saying that Trump is a pathological liar by nearly every definition. Are you saying he's not?

 

[Sommerswerd]

so you are doubling down on agreeing with yourself about an opinion regarding a term that is not properly defined?

"doubling down on agreeing with yourself?" What does that even mean? "agreeing with myself" as opposed to what? Agreeing with you? How can I not "agree with myself"?

Is this just a muddled way of complaining that I wasn't persuaded by your argument? Why even say that? Especially since, as El Mac points out, you haven't addressed that your argument fails because Trump is a pathological liar by most if not all definitions, so your point that its "not properly defined" is irrelevant. And what is "properly" anyway? Properly according to who? You? As I said, you already stated it wasn't in the DSM so you've already surrendered the "properly defined" argument.

 

[bernie14]

Yes. And then he's saying that Trump is a pathological liar by nearly every definition. Are you saying he's not?

I would not he able to say one way or another since there is no clinical definition...my opinion is that trump is not a pathological liar

"doubling down on agreeing with myself?" What does that even mean? "agreeing with myself" as opposed to what? Agreeing with you?

Is this just a muddled way of complaining that I wasn't persuaded by your argument? Why even say that? Especially since, as El Mac points out, you haven't addressed that your argument fails because Trump is a pathological liar by most if not all definitions, so your point that its "not properly defined" is irrelevant. And what is "properly" anyway? Properly according to who? You?

clinically defined??? Wasn't that your claim in your post???

EDIT. It's not included in the dsm BECAUSE there is not a consensus clinical opinion

EDIT 2....post #338...do i need to quote it again, dr. Sommerswerd?