Neither of these points are coming across well, if it helps?
Trump Indicted!
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
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Core Imposter
Felon
- Joined
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I argue the Trump side here because no one else does and I believe that weaponizing our legal system for political purposes is going to have devastating consequences for the whole world. Of course, I don't suppose anything that I argue will matter to anyone here. Tilting at windmills.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Wouldn't be trolling if they did.
No we don't, because you made that up.
IRRELEVANT my friend.
Is it? If he could convince the jury that he paid off Stormy to avoid Melania leaving him he would be innocent, right?
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
The case is about falsifying his business records.
NYS Open Legislation | NYSenate.gov
There is one thing I do not understand. Trump may or may not be rich in total, when you add up all the liabilities, but he defiantly has access to lots of money. Like everyone Trump has many ways of paying for stuff, except he has more. Each of these has advantages and disadvantages. One consideration is how much of a paper trail it leaves, another is how "efficient" it is, as in how much does it cost you compared to how much the receiving party gets.
He could have paid off a porn star in bitcoin, he could have paid in cash, he could have paid via Panamanian anonymous corporation, he could have transferred it from his personal bank account. I am kind of surprised his mate who found the story did not buy it and expect some quid-pro-quo but I guess Trump cannot be trusted like that. As it is he paid through his lawyer, which left a paper trail and real person to talk, and ended up with the government getting as much money as Stormy via the lawyers taxes. Surely rich people must pay for stuff under the table all the time, how was an option that had the state getting 50% of the money ever considered, let alone used?
He could have paid off a porn star in bitcoin, he could have paid in cash, he could have paid via Panamanian anonymous corporation, he could have transferred it from his personal bank account. I am kind of surprised his mate who found the story did not buy it and expect some quid-pro-quo but I guess Trump cannot be trusted like that. As it is he paid through his lawyer, which left a paper trail and real person to talk, and ended up with the government getting as much money as Stormy via the lawyers taxes. Surely rich people must pay for stuff under the table all the time, how was an option that had the state getting 50% of the money ever considered, let alone used?
Verbose
Deity
Trump's argument is that he knew nothing and did nothing. (I know, it's not what he bleats about publicly – which is how it's all a political conspiracy.)
We already know campaign law was broken by the Trump campaign. It's why Michael Cohen is the key witness. He was sentenced, and did time, for breaking campaign law already. It's just that at the time the bulk-heads separating Trump from Cohen's actions held.
So the question is if these bulk-heads, insulating Trump from culpability, will hold this time as well?
But then, here you are, blithely assuming Trump could-have-would-have-should-have about a matter he claims to have had no knowledge of or influence over.
Since everyone knows Trump is The Big Dog, the Boss, the guy who has say about everything, and his minions scurry about to fix thing for the Big Man. And that's how Trump likes it – he's the boss, he's in charge. And no one questions that. Everyone implicitly knows this.
Which creates this interesting cognitive dissonance – because Cohen was Trumps fixer, scurrying about to make the Boss's bidding. Except in this case, for some improbably reason in this particular instance we are supposed to believe Cohen acted completely on his own, totally blind-siding Trump, the poor dear...
And it's why somehow collective amnesia seems to have gripped the US over the basic fact that it has already been established that the Trump campaign broke elections law. It's just that Cohen alone could be made out to be completely responsible for that. But seemingly completely insulate Trump from it all.
I think you may be getting my point wrong. As I understand it the following facts are uncontested:
- Cohen paid Stormy £130,000
- Trump, or Trump Org. or something paid Cohen ~£260,000
- The taxman got £130,000
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Have you considered Trump might be an idiot who doesn't listen to his advisors and fires anyone who doesn't go: "Yes former president mister Trump"?
Verbose
Deity
They would get fired for the "former" bit. Trump doesn't concede he didn't win. The election was stolen by Biden, remember?
You mean like "a really bad criminal surrounded by really bad criminals"
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
I know, the election was rigged. Because Trump said so.
As was the election in 2016, where he did win the popular vote. Because Trump said so.
Just as this trial is politically motivated. Because Trump said so.
That's all the support people have when claiming this is lawfare/a political motivated trial. It's because Trump said so.
Quite some time ago I asked members of this forum to present evidence for their claims this is a political motivated trial. I'm still waiting.
Alternative facts are great. You make something up when you don't like reality. And it doesn't matter you can't support it.
As was the election in 2016, where he did win the popular vote. Because Trump said so.
Just as this trial is politically motivated. Because Trump said so.
That's all the support people have when claiming this is lawfare/a political motivated trial. It's because Trump said so.
Quite some time ago I asked members of this forum to present evidence for their claims this is a political motivated trial. I'm still waiting.
Alternative facts are great. You make something up when you don't like reality. And it doesn't matter you can't support it.
Verbose
Deity
Unfortunately it is very probable this is where Trump and fx Putin connect. Thety don't get involved with the finicky bits. They just make general statements, or just pose a question, like: "Wouldn't it be good if so-and-so just went away?" And then suddenly the Cohen's of the outfit try to figure out a way to please the boss. And before anyone knows what happened, Stormy Daniels has been paid off, Navalny ended up dead, etc...
Verbose
Deity
Assumes the party to be paid off is playing ball and working with you, not against you, perhaps? Which wouldn't seem to have been the case here. Stormy Daniels wasn't going away just generally, and was going to make trouble. That willingness to cause Trump trouble should have restricted his options. Because if the Trump side didn't come through, there would be consequences.
As to why not an even more underhand mechanism? Well, if making a deal with SD didn't come with requirements. Then simply – entitlement.
Rich people tend to think they are almighty (and more intelligent – special – than the normies, which is a total lie), and can make the world work the way they would like it to every time. By showing some money at the ordinary, poor, needy and thus pliant, folk. They can do what they like, and ordinary people suffer what the must – because: money. Trump is a walking poster for that attitude, in all his life and times.
It is a good in itself to prove to them this is not the case. Not least because these assumptions of power tend to become weirdly self-fulfilling. They get away with things because people end up in thrall of the wealth and power, and accept they can get away with it.
In all probability: Cohen was a dumbass. Trump was a dumbass. They never saw a need they couldn't fix by bending the laws to breaking point, and in a pinch bribing someone. Otherwise we have to assume either of them had some kind of respect for the law, even if only some kind of primal fear – but we know Trump has already spent his life in litigation over – most things – and since he has always gotten away with whatever, none of that has inculcated anything looking like a respect for laws, or rules... They are for lesser people.
The law is just annoying – so much more cleverer if one could just do things like Vlad over in Moscow... And come next year, we might get to watch Donald Trump home-improve the US more to his liking in this respect.
The way I would expect these things to happen is for Trump to just give Cohen cash and Cohen give that to Stormy after taking his cut. In the fantasy world where Trump was doing this to protect his marriage that would be perfectly legal, right? So that is less underhand, in a sense at least. If that cost a little more because Stormy was not playing ball it is not going to cost double. As it is whatever really happened the whole "paying Cohen as wages so adding tax" just made it expensive and lie, so potentially criminal.
Surely this is not the first time Trump has paid someone to keep quiet? It seems unlikely this is the first time Cohen has paid someone to keep quiet for Trump. Did the taxpayer take 50% of those?
I am not an expert in money laundering, but I would assume that no paper trail at all would raise much more red flags with all kinds of agencies (and also carry greater punishment if caught). Falsified invoices with taxes paid and everything are very unlikely to raise any attention unless someone has a specific reason to look into it. And if they have that specific reason, they will likely already know the story, the very thing the whole endeavor was supposed to prevent.
I am pretty sure that this is quite a standard procedure, but usually no one get caught because everyone keeps quiet.
We all know tax fraud can be profitable, but this is no reason to casually engage in tax fraud.
Verbose
Deity
Well, formerly Trump wasn't shooting for the presidency. Campaign laws was a new thing for him and his outfit. Cohen isn't the sharpest tool in the shed – never mind Trump's mind – and by accounts, he cracked under the new and unexpected levels of scrutiny and pressure.
EnglishEdward
Deity
A conviction here may set an uncomfortable precedent.
I.e. Lawfare may have unintended consequences.
If rich people can not pay off discarded lovers and secure their
discretion, I suspect more discarded lovers will be found dead.
If he was doing it to save his marriage it would be legal to pay cash. If he was doing it for the campaign it would have been legal to pay with campaign cash (though I guess that would have to be put in the accounts). I am not sure where the tax fraud would be, the money Cohen was reimbursed because of tax would not have been due if the money had gone straight to Stormy.
Yes, it would have been legal, but not without a paper trail. You can't just show up at a bank with $130000 without an explanation where it came from. And the explanation "It is hush money from Trump" (which will be forwarded to multiple agencies) kinda defeats the point, doesn't it? So instead, the explanation is "It is work for Essential Consultants, LLC under an NDA" and no one will bat an eye. But that level of indirection also means taxes.
