TT01: Beating Demigod

[templar_x]

@ Buce - get well soon again, my friend. we need our chief general in good health when the blood starts rinsing...

@ TT - great you make it back for your righteous place, to lead the game decisive invasion of the other continent.

btw, 2 days ago i saw L Cohen in Vienna. he was awesome and impressive, touched us all a lot to an extent i can hardly describe. the concert took place in one of the nicest "classic" halls in Vienna, and everyone was so enthusiastic about the chance to see this old poet once again, and very obvisously he too was enthusiasmized. he was obviously moved by the reception of the audience, and didn´t want to stop performing. i think he played about 45 minutes extra time!

@ DWetzel - i fear i won´t be able to check the save before tonight. would have liked to post some comments, but this week has been hell at work, after my holidays. very productive, though.

 

[DWetzel]

Update: should play today, won't be able to post until tonight though.

 

[Bucephalus]

@ Buce - get well soon again, my friend....

Thanks, mate. I should be back in the loop by mid-week.

Warning: heavy war is NOT one of my strong points. So if you have advice beforehand, speak freely.

There shouldn't be any fighting in your set, DW. I think it's a case of more of the same for now. We need to continue railing our best shield tiles, get factories/ CP's in our best cities, and maybe start pushing out some SM's/Muskets ready for upgrade - we should be able to switch off research once we have RP's. Meantime continue to pillage.

I wouldn't worry too much about Frigates bombarding the coast - it's a minor irritation to us, but will help pile on the WW for them (they are in democracy)

Hey guys, good to see you have been moving the game forward! I suppose I can play a turnset in the weekend. So if you play on Friday DWetzel, I will take it after you. If you all agree fo course.

Good to see you back, TT.

 

[DWetzel]

Update, have played 7 turns. As noted, not much fighting. A few random landings have netted 2 leaders which became armies so that was nice. Not so nice was inca and France signing MPP and thus we are at war with both.

We just got RP, we have medicine in 6 turns at zero science thanks to all our farms. We needS boatload of gold to upgrade our swiss mercs to infantry and cannons to artillery. Cannons alone are about 5500 where we have 1200. France has corporation and not electricity, inca just went industrial.

I will either finish tonight or out it up as is. Sorry it took so long, had hoped to play Saturday at latest but no dice.

 

[DWetzel]

Well, here you go. A fairly quiet set. I got a little sloppy near the end, cost a couple of units. Not a big deal but not my finest work.

950 AD Preflight (CA2, Notepad)

Discover that we can lower lux slider to 0% with just a few MP adjustments and hiring a clown or two--so I do.

Swap a couple builds to privateers from cannons. Swap Arnhem from a bank to a factory.

In France, I move the Swiss Merc onto that iron mountain--may as well make it useful on its way out. I agree it needs to be abandoned to help pillage faster.

Spoiler :

Hit Enter.

IBT: Inca and France sign MPP. Ack!

Frigate bombs our cav in Chondote. Then screen locked up so I couldn't see anything else (grumble). My fault; I have to remember that I can't do anything else or that happens.

960 AD (1): Electricity in; RP in 6 at 80% (100% is also 6 turns, though maybe I could shave it to 5...decide not to bother.) France has The Corporation and is willing to negotiate (but I'm not, muahaha). Delft 2 worker-privateer. Utrecht frigate-frigate. Maastricht market-library. New Middelburg worker-worker. New Delft worker-worker. Breda 2 worker-worker.

We lose our incense as our righteous crusade against France has caused the sniveling Inca to declare war on us. So now I have to re-raise the lux to 10% and re-MM everything. Grrrrr!

I note that our Swiss Merc on the iron is dead, with a 2/4 French cav and a 4/4 rifle on the iron. Don't know if he took anybody with him. We'll call this (0-1).

I also note that France landed 3 cavs and a knight on our east coast. Those will die well. I redline them all with cannon. Then:

4/5 knight vs. 1/4 knight = 1/5 knight (1-1).
3/5 sword vs. 1/4 cav = 3/5* Willem Jansz, who runs to make an army.
5/5 sword vs. 1/4 cav= 4/5* Dirck Hartog, who runs to make another army. So that was nice.

Can't find any other elites handy, so send a cav to finish the other 1/4 cav. (4-1).

Then, for fun, bomb the stack of ships down to 1/4 each. We don't have any ships in the area, but that should slow down the next wave.

Rail a bunch of tiles. Army + explorers move around Lyons but don't find anything useful to pillage.

IBT: Nothing.

970 AD (2): New Leerdam barracks-Swiss Merc. Leiden 2 worker-explorer. Stavanger worker-privateer. Holwerd worker-explorer. Rotterdam 2 worker-settler.

Army pillages horses next to Paris.

More railing.

IBT: French landing party (rifle, cav, MI, MI) arrives to die near Perseopolis. Incan caravel appears near our south island, drops off an archer! Oh noes!

980 AD (3): New Hilversum worker-worker. Sardis settler-worker. Hareid settler-frigate. Caughwanaga worker-worker. Den Helder 2 worker-worker. Harlingen 2 worker-worker. Hilversum 2 worker-worker.

Bomb the crap out of the French stack, and later their ships. Kill stack, our eKnight does not promote. (8-1).

Dispatch Incan archer with our MI (9-1).

Army pillages French iron near Besancon.

Found DWetzelbrg in our desert (explorer), and Island City on the old Viking island (worker).

Notice a few builds down south that were wacky and switch them.

IBT: French land another party of death near Perseopolis.

990 AD (4): Pasargarde factory (up to 39 spt and I'm railing a couple of the hills)-cavalry. New Zwolle worker-frigate. The Hague army-factory. Mauch Chunk worker-frigate. Eindhoven worker-explorer. Delft cav-cav. New Rotterdam settler-explorer. Gouda aqueduct-cannon. Groningen 2 worker-cannon. Arnhem 2 settler-cannon.

Four French cavs die horribly (13-1).

Found Yan City down south (galleon).

Drop science to 0%; RP is in 4 turns, we could get it in 3 at 40 to 100%. I figure we can use the cash to upgrade all those cannon, Swiss Mercs, etc.

IBT: A frigate bombards at Chondote; France lands a WARRIOR down south at the island, and another stack of people waiting to die near Perseopolis.

1000 AD (5): New Gouda worker-worker. Lauwerskoog cav-cav. Breda cav-factory. Leerdam settler-cannon. Lauwerskoog 2 worker-cannon.

Rush Factory in The Hague for 860g, and five galleons for assembly of a convoy.

Found Northern Vineyards up in the northeast (frigate).

Make two French rifles, a MI, and the warrior die (17-1).

IBT: French land on the far northeast island.

1010 AD (6): Roosendaal galleon-galleon. Pasargarde cav-cav. Dordrecht galleon-galleon. The Hague factory-army. Arnhem factory-frigate. Maastricht settler-settler. Leiden cav-SM. Harlingen galleon-galleon. Enschede galleon-galleon. Temprepremiere galleon-galleon. Haarlem 2 worker-galleon. Enschede 2 worker-worker. Tilburg 2 worker-privateer.

The Inca are willing to negotiate.

First Sword Army dispatches the two invaders (19-1).

Pillage French coal.

More railing etc.

IBT: French frigate nips one of those galleons that I was assembling (19-2), at least now I can finish it off.

1020 AD (7): Perseopolis library-cannon. New Leerdam SM-cav. Utrecht frigate-frigate. Odense worker-settler. New Arnhem worker-worker. New Leiden worker-worker.

Bombard frigate to 1/4, then sink it (20-2).

Pillage French saltpeter.

More railing.

IBT: Nada.

1030 (8): RP is in! Medicine in 6 at 0% science (muahahaha). Pasargarde cav-cav. Rotterdam factory-infantry. New Dordrecht worker-worker. Delft cav-cav. Arnhem frigate-frigate. Birka settler-settler. Leiden SM-infantry. Den Helder court-infantry. Tilburg SM-artillery. Zwolle 2 worker-galleon. Gouda 2 worker-worker.

We have three sources of rubber, two on our mainland and one on the large Viking island.

Bunch more railing (much faster now thanks to RP!) and that sort of thing.

IBT: Nada except a few French ships move into view.

1040 (9): New Amsterdam courthouse-infantry. Groningen library-court. Evora settler-settler. Middelburg 2 worker-wealth.

Army and settlers move into position to pillage some other horses next turn. I do note that this is not very effective, I think the French and Incans are trading. We may want to break that up somehow.

Bomb the stack of French boats to 1/4.

IBT: Incans land at Chondote (ick), French land on the Viking island (also ick, but much less so).

1050 (10): Pasargarde cav-cav. This was a great choice of FP town by the way--may be worth a coal plant... MIGHT get 1-turn cavs. Maybe. Arnhem frigate-galleon. Den Helder riots (oops). New Enschede galleon-galleon.

Dispatch French invaders on the Viking island, though I lose a cav and an eKnight rather against the odds (24-4).

Dispatch the Incan invaders via a galleon convoy, but again lose two cavs well against the odds (27-6). In retrospect, I should have been much more careful here.

Our army pillaging campaign isn't terribly effective I don't think--they have enough workers to do the job of re-roading behind us, and it's too large an area to cover.

I am letting us research Medicine with all our specialists rather than switching them to taxmen. I think it's worthwhile to head for tanks, and we may as well do so via ToE.

I have left one Medieval Infantry awake near Pasargarde. That tile needs to be mined. That should take Pasargarde to 53 spt, and we MIGHT get that to 80 with a coal plant. It's worth a try. (It may only be 79, at which point we start disbanding slaves for 1-turn cavs.)

Most of our standing troops are fortified just north of Amsterdam. A few are in Chondote, having dealt with that incursion. Our navy is in Rotterdam 2 on our northwest coast. I think we need quite a few more galleons. We also need a boatload of cash for upgrading our 45 cannon to artillery (at 120g each). It may be worth some sort of a multi-army raid to take Leo's Workshop, even at the cost of an army or two, to upgrade those.

 

[templar_x]

i can´t imagine we´ll need tanks in this game. have to take a look at the save, maybe i can tonight.
normally i´d change the specialists to taxmen. you said we need the money for upgrades, and we need it now. i can hardly imagine the huge beaker (and shields! if we go for ToE) investment in the research of tanks will pay off. it´s -1 movement and with enough arty we have no real need for the extra a-power.

 

[DWetzel]

I can accept no tanks, I guess, though I think it would be quicker.

Still I think that we should grab TOE, if not for that then for the standard Hoover Dam play. Pasargarde can buy a coal plant and get TOE done in like 8 turns. That strikes me as better than building coal plants everywhere.

 

[Bucephalus]

I agree with Templar, I think all we require is Arty and Infantry/ Cavalry; if we wait for Tanks, we'll not only have to research up to MTrans but we'll also not be upgrading our Cannons - we need a period of zero science to raise that much gold. And I reckon a Cav Army is more than potent enough to take out red-lined Rifles, and we should have a good few of them.

Hoover would be nice, I suppose, but still requires two more techs before we can build it.

 

[DWetzel]

It does. Those two techs are roughly a dozen turns of the specialists. The specialists, if converted to taxmen, would be about 400 gpt. At a dozen turns of that (plus the 200 gpt we can run right now at zero science), we'd be able to upgrade about 90% of our cannon but no Swiss Mercs to infantry.

There's also the matter of building the ToE, which costs another 4 or 8 cavalry depending on if Pasargarde can actually make 80 spt with a coal plant. (I think it can, but it's very very very close).

Against that, we up our production capacity by 50%, which will turn a lot of 3-turn cav and artillery into 2-turners, and I think allow Utrecht or Arnhem (forget which) to pop out 1-turn galleons.

We can also do that by building about a dozen useful coal plants--which is more shields than the TOE is.

I think we have about 40 cavalry, five empty armies, and 45 cannon assembled at our staging area. We probably can scrounge up another 10 cavalry and cannon from MP duties, our smaller islands, etc. We also have roughly a dozen galleons to transport those, which is another two trips.

Is that enough to finish the job over there (or make enough of an impact that our following production will be able to supplement our losses)? I don't think it is. But I have little to no experience to guide that.

 

[DWetzel]

Actually, my math is a little poor. A dozen turns of zero science could probably upgrade all the cannon and about 8 Swiss Mercs to infantry--counting the 200 gpt that we are already getting. That 200 gpt will upgrade about 40% of our cannon over 12 turns.

 

[Bucephalus]

Is that enough to finish the job over there (or make enough of an impact that our following production will be able to supplement our losses)? I don't think it is. But I have little to no experience to guide that.

Hell, yes. With five Cav Armies (and why stop at five when we can rush them?) and forty Arty we can do without the Infantry altogether, never mind Tanks.

We do need to remember not to fully load the Armies until we disembark, though, else they won't fit in galleons.

Another thing to consider is that if we wait for Tanks, they will - like as not - be facing Infantry

 

[ThinkTank]

Been reading up a bit. I'll look at the save later today and post some comments. Consider this a got it.

From earlier news:

I hope TT can smell the scent of victory in the air.

Ahh, that was the smell of victory? Beats napalm by a mile!

... land the army and the other “pillage people”.

So did they scare away the French by playing their music?

IBT: Bad news indeed, French attack the army, taking 10hp. Apparently 3 defense on a mountain wasn’t enough.

...

The pillaging went slower than expected, due to the army not being immune from attack. Only once was there a more than half-hearted attempt to kill it, and that came pretty close, dropping it down to 6hp.

A full health army attacked? I thougth this was an impossibility if it is out in the open. Anyone know the odds for this? I mean, the funnel of doom concept assumes this probability zero, correct?

Sorry for the absence, guys.
I needed some time-out to decide if I still want to continue playing SG's, recent events having reminded me why I quit in the first place.

I can understand this. I played online bridge for some time but I quit after one and a half year. My verdict then was: too many bigmouthed nitwits. There's a couple of issues I feel.

First, electronic communication is just different, all kind of non-linguistic feedback that give context to a persons attitude in face-to-face discussions are missing. Email suffers from this, in that sometimes a statement sounds overly hash or is taken that way. I've seen this happen at work, but also in forums and online games. Smileys can only partly compensate for this but they're useful.

Second, the relative anonimity of a forum like this or other online games sometimes brings out the worst in people by letting them take an attitude that they never would dare to take in a real face-to-face discussion. This is reinforced by:

Third, often, (competitive) game playing involves some sort of ego or showing off to the world how smart you are.

I have been guilty of all three. I try to cope by being aware of this, aim at having fun, and assume that anyone elses aim too, until proven otherwise.

In my view, it is actually quite amazing that relatively few situations really get out of hand at this forum.

 

[ThinkTank]

I think we have about 40 cavalry, five empty armies, and 45 cannon assembled at our staging area. We probably can scrounge up another 10 cavalry and cannon from MP duties, our smaller islands, etc. We also have roughly a dozen galleons to transport those, which is another two trips.

Is that enough to finish the job over there (or make enough of an impact that our following production will be able to supplement our losses)? I don't think it is. But I have little to no experience to guide that.

Hell, yes. With five Cav Armies (and why stop at five when we can rush them?) and forty Arty we can do without the Infantry altogether, never mind Tanks.

Our armies will loose the occasional hitpoint. Will that not expose them to attack? If so, will a small contingent of infantry (10 or so) not be a kind of insurance for this possibility?

 

[TheOverseer714]

I am in a game where my cav armies are losing 6-10 hp against redlined Infantry. Cav armies will get dinged even against Riflemen, so they will need a strong defender as cover. That could be an army of SMs, if necessary, but I feel much more confident with Infantry. Are we going to raze everything? Defending captured cities against Cavalry would be much better with Infantry.

 

[DWetzel]

I can understand this. I played online bridge for some time but I quit after one and a half year. My verdict then was: too many bigmouthed nitwits.

Where do you play, (if indeed you still would)? If you're looking for an occasional game with a mostly sane partner, I play regularly on BBO as capn1100 (a name earned from my teammates when I exhibited why I had to type "mostly" in the sentence above).



As for the game... we WILL have six cav armies (1 over there plus five empties), plus probably a couple more (though, I don't see us rushing them if we're still upgrading artillery and the like). If that plus bombardment units plus more patience than I normally would use is enough to do the trick, then shut off research.

The French are two techs from RP if they want it; they're also three techs from Combustion and making it much less fun to get across. So if we deem this enough, we probably ought to go now.

 

[Bucephalus]

Our armies will loose the occasional hitpoint. Will that not expose them to attack? If so, will a small contingent of infantry (10 or so) not be a kind of insurance for this possibility?

We would just need to rotate the Armies, always keeping a full-health one on top; remember, Armies will even heal in enemy territory. I'm not saying don't send any infantry, just that it would be 'belts and braces', IMO.

A full health army attacked? I thougth this was an impossibility if it is out in the open.

Not impossible but unlikely; Overseer had it right - units on patrol occasionally collide with the Army.

I am in a game where my cav armies are losing 6-10 hp against redlined Infantry. Cav armies will get dinged even against Riflemen, so they will need a strong defender as cover. That could be an army of SMs, if necessary, but I feel much more confident with Infantry. Are we going to raze everything? Defending captured cities against Cavalry would be much better with Infantry.

I see no reason not to raze as we go.

 

[Bucephalus]

The French are two techs from RP if they want it; they're also three techs from Combustion and making it much less fun to get across. So if we deem this enough, we probably ought to go now.

I would suggest a few turns peace to allow us to transport our units safely, unless anyone has a problem with breaking rep.

 

[ThinkTank]

I say upgrade and go for it a.s.a.p. They will probably have RP before the game is over anyway. What we can kill before that is good. Tanks are not terribly effective against infantry anyway, we would still have to rely heavily on arty. We raze everything, starting with the core. They will resettle in part but their production capacity will slowly fade away. Planning issues and ideas:

1. Where do we land? I understand that the French navy is mostly active at our Eastern shore, correct? So we sail west for our invasion? What will the landing spot.
2. For safety, we need to be at peace with both opponents when we sail, correct?
3. What do we need on the other continent, and what needs to stay at home and at our islands?
4. Stop research until we have upgraded and landed. Then we can think about turning it on again. In that case, I would give priority to better ships.

 

[Bucephalus]

I say upgrade and go for it a.s.a.p. They will probably have RP before the game is over anyway. What we can kill before that is good. Tanks are not terribly effective against infantry anyway, we would still have to rely heavily on arty. We raze everything, starting with the core. They will resettle in part but their production capacity will slowly fade away. Planning issues and ideas:

1. Where do we land? I understand that the French navy is mostly active at our Eastern shore, correct? So we sail west for our invasion? What will the landing spot.
2. For safety, we need to be at peace with both opponents when we sail, correct?
3. What do we need on the other continent, and what needs to stay at home and at our islands?
4. Stop research until we have upgraded and landed. Then we can think about turning it on again. In that case, I would give priority to better ships.

1) If we are at peace, as near to the core as possible.

2) I think that makes sense.

3) If we are railed from top to toe, we need just enough units to repell any landings - say a handful of Arty and a few Cavs.

4) I'm doubtful it will last long enough to make better ships an issue.

 

[DWetzel]

I say upgrade and go for it a.s.a.p. They will probably have RP before the game is over anyway. What we can kill before that is good. Tanks are not terribly effective against infantry anyway, we would still have to rely heavily on arty. We raze everything, starting with the core. They will resettle in part but their production capacity will slowly fade away. Planning issues and ideas:

1. Where do we land? I understand that the French navy is mostly active at our Eastern shore, correct? So we sail west for our invasion? What will the landing spot.
2. For safety, we need to be at peace with both opponents when we sail, correct?
3. What do we need on the other continent, and what needs to stay at home and at our islands?
4. Stop research until we have upgraded and landed. Then we can think about turning it on again. In that case, I would give priority to better ships.

1. Definitely in the west, for the reason you noted and because, well, that's where I've been gathering OUR fleet. There are some French ships out there, but not in great numbers.

2. Honestly, I don't know that that's a very big deal. We do have three frigates as part of the flotilla and can easily have a couple more.

3. We don't need much at home. We have a full rail net at home--our core is 100% railed save for a couple forests that never found a convenient time to get chopped, and now we're just filling in gaps spreading out from there. We do have the auxiliary islands, but we have a couple of galleons in the east set up to ferry troops (load-sail-unload and kill) if need be. We have our obsolete armies; that and whatever is getting produced that turn should be good enough to fend off invasions. Frankly, if they happen to take that far northeast island, or Chondote, it's not a big deal.

4. I guess--though that's pretty much on the way to everything else, namely tanks and bombers.


We've seen next to no action from the Inca. As they are at war with us anyway, I wonder if it might make more sense to take a safe landing zone there. There's a tiny peninsula there. Would make a nice chokepoint--again, dependent on us getting some infantry for them to punch themselves out on.

Basically, though, the French core is due west of where I have our fleet. It's a slightly longer sail than the other direction. Their core is pretty symmetrical, so I don't know if it matters much which way we attack it.

I'd assume we are in full raze and replace if needed mode, keeping only very useful wonders such as Leo's and Sun Tzu. I have three settlers ready for emergency combat-settling duty as part of our army.