TT01: Beating Demigod

"Anyway I checked the save and the water is salt as it produces only 1 food, sweet water will give you 2 food."

Then, *in hindsight* I did speak wrongly about the time to found the towns. I temporarily forgot you could check this without founding a town, and I couldn't check it from here.

"your conclusion about the one less commerce is wrong"

I did actually mean one more commerce for the wheat start and not the other way around. Sorry for the miscommunication.
 
Yeah... even though I've made my disagreement known... I think start 2 an overall strong start, and I'd like in. I still think we should have a victory condition in mind, as I've learned in my current succession game that different victory conditions might favor different town locations for various reasons.
 
We neeed more players! So where are all these emperor level players that want to move on? Come on guys, if you're in for a challenge, join this SG!
 
Lets see, I'm involved in 5 and starting a 6th. Wish I could, but I'm already pushing it.
 
I'm a lurker for now, but I may join in if Doug and I can finish up our two-man SG this week. ;)
 
Maybe, but with two wheats and only 2 bonus grasslands in sight so far we might have under-production for 2 4 turn settler factories, since wheats don't produce shields once we irrigate them.

lurker's comment:

As an agricultural civ, you will be able to mine one of the Wheats.

Edit: make that both Wheats.
 
I'm not sure that playing demigod builder style is in general a good approach, since getting time to build implies not being attacked by the AI, which implies being relatively strong, which we won't be for the start of the game and some considerable time after that. I think it will take some amount of war to get us from being backward to being one of the guys.

lurker's comment:

I've just submitted a HOF 1300AD SS victory on DG, in which I had barely any military before the MA, and there was not one single war throughout, so it is acheivable.
 
Bucephalus,

Did you wonderfy yourself into a GA? Which tribe? Which wonders did you build?
 
Bucephalus,

Did you wonderfy yourself into a GA? Which tribe? Which wonders did you build?

I've played another, similar game since so my memory on Wonder builds may be hazy, but I think I had Cops, Newtons and SETI in one city. I also picked up Hoover, UN, and ToE; the UN started my GA (as planned), and I played as Iroquois.

It will be published with the next HOF update if you want the saves.
 
lurker's comment:

I've just submitted a HOF 1300AD SS victory on DG, in which I had barely any military before the MA, and there was not one single war throughout, so it is acheivable.

Nice result! :goodjob: What were the map parameters? Did you preselect opponents? And is MA Middle Ages (I presume) or Modern Age? What, do you think, was the reason for there being no war?

I was not denying that it is impossible. I was trying to say that playing DG builder style is often not a good idea. This does not equate that it is always wrong or infeasible.

BTW Buce, don't you want to join this game? We sure can use a player like you!
 
... and I'd like in.

No worries, you're in. But I'd like to have at least 5 or 6 dedicated players to start. With killerkid out until August we need at least 3 more to start before that, 2 if we start in August.

So Overseer and DWetzel, you're absolutely welcome!
 
Nice result! :goodjob: What were the map parameters?

Thanks, TT. :)

Map was standard, continents, 60% water, warm, wet, 5 billion years.

Did you preselect opponents?

Yep, Korea, Sumeria, France, Ottomans, Greece, Babylon.



And is MA Middle Ages (I presume) or Modern Age? What, do you think, was the reason for there being no war?

Modern Age. I decided on the minimal military approach early on when I discovered that I had no Iron or Horses, then later when I found that I had no Salt it just continued almost by default. I wasn't safe from destruction until I got Infantry (I had rubber, which apart from two lux's was the only native resource that I was given), and then I couldn't have mounted an offensive war.

I've pondered on the reason for no war; this was my first experience of such a game (although I've since played one almost identical to it, but on a large map) so it's too early for anything more than speculation, but there was a pattern over the two games. In a 'normal' game all we want to do is win, so we hoard our resources or sell them high, we guard our tech leads like a jealous lover, if we want a resource we take it by force. In a HOF game, winning isn't enough - you want to win as early as possible. So I traded my lux's, willingly sold my techs, traded for everything I needed. With the game so awash with money, the tech-pace moved on quickly. And when it lagged in the Industrial Ages (you know, that frustrating bit where we have to wait around whle everyone else researches Fascism etc) I gifted where necessary; can you imagine gifting RP's all around, just so they'll research Refining for us instead? And gradually everyone became 'Gracious'.

The second game differed only when I had to go on the offensive to get Uranium/Aluminium - it was evenly distributed so there was none to trade.

I was not denying that it is impossible. I was trying to say that playing DG builder style is often not a good idea. This does not equate that it is always wrong or infeasible.

I'd go so far as to say that it always not a good idea unless you are gambling on an early finish; at any stage - in either game - I could have been destroyed by my neighbours, and that remained true until 'Tanks' at least. That just isn't sensible.

BTW Buce, don't you want to join this game? We sure can use a player like you!

Maybe. I've become a bit frustrated with SG's, but this one is tempting.... let me think about it awhile.
 
OK, TT, count me in.

I concur that Start 2 is the better of the five, but in all truth we won't know if it's any good until we see the surrounding land - how often have you pulled a 2 Cow start, only to find it surrounded by jungle/swamp/desert?

But that's OK, part of the challenge is playing the cards that are dealt.
 
"I'd go so far as to say that it always not a good idea unless you are gambling on an early finish; at any stage - in either game - I could have been destroyed by my neighbours, and that remained true until 'Tanks' at least."

I see no reason to think that we "could" have gotten destroyed by our "neighbors", when those "neighbors", in reality, consist of computer programs that operate unconsciously on algorithms. In my experience, and from Drakan's "Deity builder" article, IF you know how to manipulate the AI and keep them happy, the occurance of getting attacked come as rather low. And even if you do, the AI will only attack the outer towns first, and you can switch your inner towns immediately after getting attacked and fight back, as they won't defend those outer towns with tons of units for at least a few turns, if not more... so fighting back against such an AI comes like fighting a lower-level AI, in my opinion.

Do you have a screenshot or save Bucephalus? Did you have specialist farms? How much territory and how many cities did you have? I'd like to know.
 
I could probably take a part-time position in the roster, and if I'm swamped, I'll ask for a skip. So count me in, if just as a part-timer.

Edit: 2 is fine, but I like cows over wheat. We'll waste 1 BG, but theres 2 more and cows get shields too. The goody hut would be fine if popped by expansion, but any other pop might get barbs.
 
"I'd go so far as to say that it always not a good idea unless you are gambling on an early finish; at any stage - in either game - I could have been destroyed by my neighbours, and that remained true until 'Tanks' at least."

I see no reason to think that we "could" have gotten destroyed by our "neighbors", when those "neighbors", in reality, consist of computer programs that operate unconsciously on algorithms. In my experience, and from Drakan's "Deity builder" article, IF you know how to manipulate the AI and keep them happy, the occurance of getting attacked come as rather low. And even if you do, the AI will only attack the outer towns first, and you can switch your inner towns immediately after getting attacked and fight back, as they won't defend those outer towns with tons of units for at least a few turns, if not more... so fighting back against such an AI comes like fighting a lower-level AI, in my opinion.

My point is that it adds an extra element of risk; if your sole objective is to win, then anything that aids the AI (and that includes 'peace') is unwanted. However, if you are looking for a fast finish, you want economically powerful opponents to make good trading partners.


Do you have a screenshot or save Bucephalus? Did you have specialist farms? How much territory and how many cities did you have? I'd like to know.

All saves will be available later today when the HOF is updated; you might want to check out another submission (Greece, DG, Large, SS, 1325AD) where I played identical strategy with almost identical results.
 
OK, TT, count me in.

Great!

I concur that Start 2 is the better of the five, but in all truth we won't know if it's any good until we see the surrounding land - how often have you pulled a 2 Cow start, only to find it surrounded by jungle/swamp/desert? But that's OK, part of the challenge is playing the cards that are dealt

Yes, that happens. Or you have a three cow start but you're on a small island. I'll post the minimaps, that may give some extra information.

In my experience, and from Drakan's "Deity builder" article, IF you know how to manipulate the AI and keep them happy, the occurance of getting attacked come as rather low.

Low maybe, but not zero, since there is always a random element as far as declarations of war concerns.

I could probably take a part-time position in the roster, and if I'm swamped, I'll ask for a skip. So count me in, if just as a part-timer.

Good! I'll just add you to the roster, since asking for a skip is just normal.

Edit: 2 is fine, but I like cows over wheat. We'll waste 1 BG, but theres 2 more and cows get shields too. The goody hut would be fine if popped by expansion, but any other pop might get barbs.

So are you saying that you actually prefer start 3?
 
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