I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,417
Bucephalus, if it is so good, may be you consider to participate at our new Sid game? (Sumeria, pangea)
TT01: Beating Demigod
- Thread starter ThinkTank
- Start date
Lurker's comment:
Groningen looks like it could whip a settler, or it could turn into a worker factory. Do you guys plan on The Statue of Zeus or would you think it overall not worth the time building and having to wait 5 turns for each ancient cavalry?
Groningen looks like it could whip a settler, or it could turn into a worker factory. Do you guys plan on The Statue of Zeus or would you think it overall not worth the time building and having to wait 5 turns for each ancient cavalry?
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Yep, I set Groningen to Settler production during my last set.
Since we only have three cities making any shields, I doubt that it would be prudent to take one off military production to chase Wonders. IMO, the shields would be better invested in 7(?) Swords.
ThinkTank
RL Addict
I agree, especially if you add in the turns it would take after the SoZ to have a reasonable force of ancient cavs. Also, our continent is rather small, and we are located fairly central on it, so the additional movement is not really of much value.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
That would be TT's call - can we use a new player, TT?
ThinkTank
RL Addict
Sure we can. Welcome templar_x! I'll put you at the end of the roster.
I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,417
Reason is that yor Demi god go better than you anticipated. Time to increase difficulty...I'm not sure that I follow your line of reasoning........
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Oh, I see.
No, I think you've misunderstood; earlier in the thread I predicted that we could clear our continent by the late Middle Ages. Recent events within the game (AI warring early, having one of only two Iron sources, cramped map) suggest to me that it can come earlier than that.
Although this game is entitled 'Beating DG', that refers to ThinkTank's desire to do so - I have beaten DG many times, and feel comfortable at Deity. I did look at your game when you first posted it, and was sorely tempted - I have learned much from lurking on your other games. However, during the school holidays my Civ time is quite restricted, and I doubt that I could find the time for a second SG.
I do appreciate the offer, though, and if you start another SID game after this I may have more time.
SoZ would cost you guys 200 shields to build... which I'd think ends up more like 6 swords than 7, since you'd have a little overrun for your swords... unless you really micromanage a lot and build swords for exactly 30 shields. For 6 swords you'd need 30 turns once the SoZ completes to get an equivlaent number of units back. The ancient cavalry would have an extra hitpoint and have a movement of two, which can work well for moving through an AIs territory on any map really... especially if you get that early leader. With some luck, though perhaps not too much, an AC army can either take an AI city all by its lonesome of severly weaken it. Two cities left for The Vikings? The AC army goes to one city and your SoD to the other (I did this in my Spanish game on Demi-God against Sumeria). I think it can also make for a fairly decent ancient age pillager. Then again, someone on the other continent might have already started the SoZ... well just check F7... you guys have all that contacts, correct? You guys have already considered that you'd slow down the growth of your military by building the SoZ... that seems a hard factor to figure in.
Some thoughts... I'd build it even if warmongering... but perhaps that's just me.
Some thoughts... I'd build it even if warmongering... but perhaps that's just me.
Well, we're pretty well MMed for shields where we'd potentially build SoZ (since either 5 spt or 6 spt makes swords come out evenly), so waste isn't much of an issue.
More importantly, given that we're at war now, and will pretty much be at war for the foreseeable future, we need those swords NOW rather than more ACs later. My thought on it isn't "one SoZ or 6.67 swords", it's "how long do we need to have SoZ before it makes itself up?" Figure an ancient cavalry is worth 40 shields? That means that, effectively, we get 8 spt of free units. We invest 200 shields into SoZ, which means that 25 turns AFTER SoZ, it's made itself up in units. During the SoZ production time, and until that point, we're behind.
Now, after that point, we zoom nicely ahead. But 60+ turns down the line we should, if we do things right, hopefully be getting to the point where we don't NEED ancient cavs.
More importantly, given that we're at war now, and will pretty much be at war for the foreseeable future, we need those swords NOW rather than more ACs later. My thought on it isn't "one SoZ or 6.67 swords", it's "how long do we need to have SoZ before it makes itself up?" Figure an ancient cavalry is worth 40 shields? That means that, effectively, we get 8 spt of free units. We invest 200 shields into SoZ, which means that 25 turns AFTER SoZ, it's made itself up in units. During the SoZ production time, and until that point, we're behind.
Now, after that point, we zoom nicely ahead. But 60+ turns down the line we should, if we do things right, hopefully be getting to the point where we don't NEED ancient cavs.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
The other factor in the case for the SoZ or against is the fact that should the Portuguese begin to build it in Lisbon, with the DG bonus, they would win the race. Maybe they will build it for us.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Which is precisely the case in both Amsterdam and The Hague, the only two cities that would be worth considering; we would therefore see eight Swords before our first AC, almost a game-breaker this early on this map.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
I've held this long enough, just wanted to play it right. We are 1 turn out from Republic, with possibly some trade options. We have 2 turns left in our Portugal alliance, then we can declare on Mighty Persia, who are rapidly running away and have built us a prize. The swords are coming out of the barrracks at a nice pace, and we have amassed a dozen. Here is the turn-log:
The save:
Spoiler :
The save:
Initial thoughts:
1. While I know our initial plan was to go for Persia, and we may still want to do that... is anyone else more than a bit concerned that we may get dogpiled if we do go that route? They have a LOT of cash. Their military can't be of any real quality, but they will have numbers. I'd love to initiate a dogpile on Persia, but right now we can pretty much trade our charm and good looks to get that.
I don't know that I agree with shutting off research. If we're going to go a-conquering, it would be very wise to get to knights ASAP. I suppose that might be of the pointy stick variety, but even so I don't know that I like those odds. Holding Perseopolis is going to be VERY tough as long as there are any Persian cities around--with GLib, Pyramids, and MoM, it's probably got more culture than our entire empire by a lot. Which means we can either go for the approach of nibbling at Persia, or trying to completely wipe them out. I assume we are going for the latter.
Republic: I assume we are planning to revolt as soon as possible?
Settling: We have two settlers now, and one in production. Is there any benefit to settling SSW of The Hague, on the river, grabbing the fish? Obviously not a production town but lots of water = lots of commerce later (after a harbor).
1. While I know our initial plan was to go for Persia, and we may still want to do that... is anyone else more than a bit concerned that we may get dogpiled if we do go that route? They have a LOT of cash. Their military can't be of any real quality, but they will have numbers. I'd love to initiate a dogpile on Persia, but right now we can pretty much trade our charm and good looks to get that.
I don't know that I agree with shutting off research. If we're going to go a-conquering, it would be very wise to get to knights ASAP. I suppose that might be of the pointy stick variety, but even so I don't know that I like those odds. Holding Perseopolis is going to be VERY tough as long as there are any Persian cities around--with GLib, Pyramids, and MoM, it's probably got more culture than our entire empire by a lot. Which means we can either go for the approach of nibbling at Persia, or trying to completely wipe them out. I assume we are going for the latter.
Republic: I assume we are planning to revolt as soon as possible?
Settling: We have two settlers now, and one in production. Is there any benefit to settling SSW of The Hague, on the river, grabbing the fish? Obviously not a production town but lots of water = lots of commerce later (after a harbor).
TheOverseer714
Overseer
I think if we don't start nibbling away at Persia, they will trade for Iron and become too big to beat. Research could be maintained at a decent rate if we are losing troops to gain territory. Burn 2-3 Persian cities, see what they give for peace, rinse and repeat. We are building troops to fight, so we should fight. Wait much longer, and the AIs will be too tough to beat down. Right now, our swords aren't outmoded, but wait 40 turns and we'll be up against muskets, not spears. My vote is the Persia war ASAP. Oh, and a fishing town is unit support too, so its fine.
Huh... two of your guys neighbors have iron, but they haven't hooked it up yet. I thought the DG bonuses would have compensated for such AI stupidity. I think I see why you guys want those weapons asap... go swords go!
Addendum: Persia can't trade for iron unless they have a contact with someone on the other continent. To draw out what I said above.... no one but The Dutch on your continent have iron hooked up yet. If I step out of line here, I'll edit this. You guys do have some overrun in Amsterdam, I don't see a better configuration though, so I'd stick with it. You can change The Hague to get an extra gold before you hit enter for the next turn and get your sword in 1 turn. Rotterdam can also grow in 1 turn instead of 2 and still produce a sword in 2. Of course, you'll want to change Amsterdam back on the next turn if you MM like this.
Addendum: Persia can't trade for iron unless they have a contact with someone on the other continent. To draw out what I said above.... no one but The Dutch on your continent have iron hooked up yet. If I step out of line here, I'll edit this. You guys do have some overrun in Amsterdam, I don't see a better configuration though, so I'd stick with it. You can change The Hague to get an extra gold before you hit enter for the next turn and get your sword in 1 turn. Rotterdam can also grow in 1 turn instead of 2 and still produce a sword in 2. Of course, you'll want to change Amsterdam back on the next turn if you MM like this.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Is Monarchy still unknown on our continent? If so, we should be able to trade now it's not a French monopoly, and certainly once we have Republic as bait.
That would be sufficient to put Persia under the dogpile if it is considered necessary; I haven't had a chance for a close look at the save yet, but instinct tells me Persia remains the best initial target, even if it takes a couple of wars.
Come on, guys - right now it's Swords against Spears/Archers, and we have the Swords. There is nothing about DG that compensates for such a disadvantage.
That would be sufficient to put Persia under the dogpile if it is considered necessary; I haven't had a chance for a close look at the save yet, but instinct tells me Persia remains the best initial target, even if it takes a couple of wars.
Come on, guys - right now it's Swords against Spears/Archers, and we have the Swords. There is nothing about DG that compensates for such a disadvantage.
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