Ukraine and Russia may go to war

[Ferocitus]

He writes essays too ? He'll write a novel next

Maybe, and it will probably be in Russian. Same as Zelenskyy's TV series.

 

[João III]

We're not talking about Chechnya. Why are you changing the subject?

Chechnya is included under "the right to self-determination and Russia's routine violations of it" in this thread about Russia violating Ukraine's sovereignty and right to self-determination

 

[red_elk]

Chechnya is included under "the right to self-determination and Russia's routine violations of it" in this thread about Russia violating Ukraine's sovereignty and right to self-determination

Why do you think so?

 

[Ferocitus]

Chechnya is included under "the right to self-determination and Russia's routine violations of it" in this thread about Russia violating Ukraine's sovereignty and right to self-determination

No it's not: that's a side issue to the thread which is actually Ukraine and Russia may go to war.

 

[João III]

Why do you think so?

We've already been over this. Because Russia denies the Chechens' right to self-determination. And now Putin's pushing revisionist propaganda to do the same to Ukraine

No it's not: that's a side issue to the thread which is actually Ukraine and Russia may go to war.

Ukraine and Russia may go to war ... because of Russia's routine violations of the right to self-determination

 

[red_elk]

We've already been over this. Because Russia denies the Chechens' right to self-determination. And now Putin's pushing revisionist propaganda to do the same to Ukraine

It doesn't. And explain how it's relevant to this thread. Russia doesn't deny anyone's self-determination in Ukraine, quite the opposite.

 

[João III]

It doesn't. And explain how it's relevant to this thread. Russia doesn't deny anyone's self-determination in Ukraine, quite the opposite.

If Russia doesn't deny the Chechens' right to self-determination, then why isn't Chechnya an independent country right now?

And "quite the opposite"? Russia is denying Ukrainian sovereignty and Ukrainians' right to self-determination at this very moment

Edit: How's it relevant to this thread titled "Ukraine and Russia may go to war"? Because Russia's routine violations of the right to self-determination are the cause of the war

 

[red_elk]

If Russia doesn't deny the Chechens' right to self-determination, then why isn't Chechnya an independent country right now?

They lost independence after aggression and terrorist attacks against Russia.

And "quite the opposite"? Russia is denying Ukrainian sovereignty and Ukrainians' right to self-determination at this very moment

Russia doesn't deny Ukraine's sovereignty. Russia recognized independence of Donbass republics, which are only part of Ukraine.
If you are so fond of self-determination, you probably should support their independence too.

 

[saamohod]

Rebels demands were not unreasonable - decentralization reform and restoring regional status of Russian language. Ukraine sent army against them.

Wrong.
Ukraine sent army against them when the pro-Russian populace got armed with military grade weapons, while the pro-Ukraine populace would get beaten, killed, flee or disappear. Regional status and other stuff put in their heads by Russian puppeteers should be discussed in Parliament building. They wanted blood, they got it.

And Russia didn't want to get involved. Putin warned people before referendum in DPR/LPR, that they should not do it, as it will make things worse.

Wrong.
I vividly remember the amount of hysteria and anti-Ukrainian filth pouring from all Russian media, and of course Donbas folk have been exclusively fed by Russian media for years. That was the time when Russian propaganda went 100% Goebbels, probably even Goebbels would envy them. Pretty sure you remember the "Crusified Boy" case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucified_Boy) which became a meme, and this was only a single instance out of freaking thousands.

Rebels didn't have heavy weaponry before July-August 2014, except those few APCs surrendered by Ukrainians.

How is it even relevant to the point I made? Russia supplied the rebels with all the necessary equipment whenever it was needed to prevent them from losing and keep the conflict going. Be it small arms, tanks, artillery, mobile anti-aircraft systems (remember the flight MH17?) and basically everything except aviation and nuclear weaponry.

National minorities in many other countries have more rights than Donetsk people wanted.

Not sure how many countries, but not in Russia for sure.

 

[João III]

They lost independence after aggression and terrorist attacks against Russia.

Please explain how the latter half of this sentence justifies the former

Russia doesn't deny Ukraine's sovereignty. Russia recognized independence of Donbass republics, which are only part of Ukraine.

These two sentences are contradictory

If you are so fond of self-determination, you probably should support their independence too.

Maybe if they pursued independence within the framework of the Ukrainian constitution instead if through a Russian-backed separatist army

 

[red_elk]

Wrong.
Ukraine sent army against them when the pro-Russian populace got armed with military grade weapons, while the pro-Ukraine populace would get beaten, killed, flee or disappear. Regional status and other stuff put in their heads by Russian puppeteers should be discussed in Parliament building. They wanted blood, they got it.

About "Russian puppeteers" putting stuff in their heads, it's purely your speculations. And they wanted blood no more than Maidan protesters.

Wrong.
I vividly remember the amount of hysteria and anti-Ukrainian filth pouring from all Russian media

This doesn't address my point. Putin still warned people before referendum that they should not do it.

Russia supplied the rebels with all the necessary equipment whenever it was needed to prevent them from losing and keep the conflict going.

Erm, no. Before Ilovaysk rebels didn't have much equipment.

One country comes to mind. It's called Russia.

Russia has 35 regional languages and multiple autonomous republics. Russia is also a federation, while your government vehemently denies the idea of federalization.

These two sentences are contradictory

How on Earth are they contradictory? If you think Russia denies Ukraine's sovereignty, provide a quote.

Maybe if they pursued independence within the framework of the Ukrainian constitution

But the same requirement doesn't apply to Chechnya for some reason.

 

[XtroTheArctic]

War is imminent...

 

[João III]

How on Earth are they contradictory? If you think Russia denies Ukraine's sovereignty, provide a quote.

Maybe because they annexed Crimea and continue to support violent separatist movements in eastern Ukraine. Those aren't the actions of a country that respects sovereignty

But the same requirement doesn't apply to Chechnya for some reason.

Didn't say it doesn't apply, but Russia seems to pick and choose when it applies. Russia supports violent separatists in Ukraine but apparently have a problem with violent separatists in Chechnya? Why is that? Why do Donetsk and Luhansk deserve independence, but not Chechnya?

Oh wait, I know. It's because Chechnya wants to breakaway from Russia while Donetsk and Luhansk want to join Russia, which would also answer the below, which you conveniently bypassed like Russia bypasses international laws:

They lost independence after aggression and terrorist attacks against Russia.

Please explain how the latter half of this sentence justifies the former

 

[JPetroski]

War is imminent...

The war has been going on for close to an hour now. Our media just hasn't received its orders yet. There have been live streams of shelling, fire fights, and border guards running away.

 

[red_elk]

Didn't say it doesn't apply, but Russia seems to pick and choose when it applies.

It seems you pick and choose to selectively support Chechnya independence, while deny it for DPR/LPR.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I expect that the initial phase will show Putin's army overwhelm the Ukraine. Then we'll see if a guerilla war takes hold and a real slaughter begins.

 

[red_elk]

I'll speak plainly: why should I believe a single word that comes out of Putin's mouth when his actions show a blatant and unequivocal denial of Ukraine's right for self-determination, sovereignty, and territorial integrity

So you don't understand what self-determination means.

 

[Ferocitus]

Well, if there was any doubt, it is clear now that Putin is insane... he actually called Ukrainians neo-Nazis. If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

Not all Ukrainians. Just the neo-Nazi ones who still use the Wolfsangel symbol, who view Stepan Bandera as a hero,
and think it was clever to set up the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre.
See the entry for Svoboda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

Moderator Action: Given the actual situation in Ukraine, you are being aggressively insensitive towards a poster who is front and center at risk. Birdjaguar

 

[saamohod]

Not all Ukrainians. Just the neo-Nazi ones who still use the Wolfsangel symbol, who view Stepan Bandera as a hero,
and think it was clever to set up the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre.
See the entry for Svoboda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

RussPropaganda keeps working even as my town is being shelled by russian rockets at this very moment.

To everybody else: most people don't care and don't want to care about Bandera or whatever figure of the past. We want to be left alone and live in our own country.

 

[Ferocitus]

Fck I love that city, lived there during the best years of my life. Will be a shame if it's lost to russcum.

Maybe Mikheil Saakashvili can do a deal with Russia to get it back for Ukraine.