Ukraine Crisis News Thread

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It is interesting (but also dangerous), that Western Europe is actually more Fascist than Ukraine
Your diagram is misleading. First of all, support of "Svoboda" party alone in Ukraine is more than 10%
Spoiler :

(The data for 2012)
Svoboda-2012.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ukrainian_Union_"Svoboda"

Secondly, I'm not sure it is a fair comparison. I don't think that leaders of European right-wing parties called for purges of hundreds of thousands Jews
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/01/01/full-list-2012-top-ten-anti-semiticanti-israel-slurs/

or made statements like this one, made by Tyagnibok:
"They took their automatic guns on their necks and went into the woods, and fought against the Muscovites, Germans, Jews and other scum who wanted to take away our Ukrainian state."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tyahnybok#Political_career

If I'm wrong about that, correct me, but it would be very unfortunate to hear that support of fascism in Europe is indeed as high as your diagram shows.
 
If I'm wrong about that, correct me, but it would be very unfortunate to hear that support of fascism in Europe is indeed as high as your diagram shows.

"But, but, the Russians are on the wrong side of everything!"
 
"But, but, the Russians are on the wrong side of everything!"
No-no, Domen has turned to the dark good side, now he is our Slavic brother. At least in the Ukraine-related topics :)

I'm wondering what is the role of Chechens in the recent developments. Kadyrov personally visited Kiev during negotiations about liberation of Russian journalists and delivered them to Grozny in his plane. Of course it was a PR on his part, but he definitely played main part in the negotiations. Looks like he has some serious influence in Ukraine. Through diaspora, maybe? Also now, these hearsays about Chechen volunteers in Donetsk...
 
Is zhyd/zhydovka pejorative in Ukraine? Here in Czech, Slovakia (not sure about other slavic countries) is it just jew/female jew. Maybe it came from Ruthenia when it was part of Czechoslovakia? The calling for purges is another thing, needs context. When you read from sentece context "who wanted to take away our Ukrainian state" it doesnt seem that bad and similiar to western extremists. Antisemitist (not sure about neonacist) appeal is clear here though.
 
Recent developments:

- terrorists in Donetsk/Luhanks have kidnapped more OSCE observers; Danish, Turkish, Estonian
- Ukrainian border guards/military have stopped a number of vehicles carrying arms for the terrorists attempting to infiltrate Ukraine from Russia
- separatists suffered a major setback in Donetsk. Separatists also set fire to the Donetsk stadium to take revenge on its Akhmetov-allied owner.
- EU has endorsed the new Ukraine president. Economic parts of the Association treaty are expected to be signed in June.

The separatist leaderships is clueless and begins to fraction; fanatical groups of foreign fighters and local thugs are taking the initiative:

Whatever help Russia may be informally offering the rebels in eastern Ukraine, President Vladimir Putin has made it clear the territory is not likely to be annexed in the same way as the Crimea. Russia did not recognise the independence referendums in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, unlike a similar referendum in Crimea, and has ignored repeated appeals by the local leaders to send in the army. Indeed, there is a gradual but continuing withdrawal of the regular Russian army from the border, where it has been concentrated in recent weeks.

The realisation that Russia is unlikely to come to the rescue has led to a fractious atmosphere among the separatists and differing views on how best to proceed.

At a tempestuous session of the self-proclaimed supreme council of the Donetsk People's Republic on Tuesday afternoon, there was shouting and arguing about the best way forward, and the divisions between different strands of the movement were apparent. Several leaders arrived with a coterie of armed bodyguards, and the session began with a minute of silence for those rebels killed on Monday.

"We need to keep hold of our emotions," the self-styled people's governor of the region, Pavel Gubarev, told a wailing woman at the sidelines of the meeting. "This is a war. Emotions will only harm us, unless they are targeted at attaining victory."

On the agenda was the setting up of "people's control" militias to protect against looting and petty crime. This came after an apparent order signed by Igor Strelkov, the Russian citizen commanding rebel forces in the besieged town of Slavyansk, announcing that two of his commanders had been sentenced to death for looting on the basis of a 1941 Soviet wartime decree. The document, which could not be verified but was carried by a Russian news agency known to have access to Strelkov, said the sentence had already been carried out.

"As well as targeting the external enemy we must flush out the enemy within," said Ivan Novakovsky, an MP of the rebel parliament from the town of Makeyevka. He said he supported the idea of the death penalty for those guilty of "serious crimes" and said that he wanted the police and "people's control" militias to patrol cities together, with "field courts" which could issue verdicts.

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NY Times reports on Russian activities to subvert Ukraine:

Russians Revealed Among Ukraine Fighters

By ANDREW ROTH and SABRINA TAVERNISEMAY 27, 2014

DONETSK, Ukraine — For weeks, rumors have flown about the foreign fighters involved in the deepening conflict in Ukraine’s troubled east, each one stranger than the last: mercenaries from an American company, Blackwater; Russian special forces; and even Chechen soldiers of fortune.

Yet there they were on Tuesday afternoon, resting outside a hospital here: Chechen men with automatic rifles, some bearing bloodstained bandages, protecting their wounded comrades in a city hospital after a firefight with the Ukrainian Army.

“We received an invitation to help our brothers,” said one of the fighters in heavily accented Russian. He said he was from Grozny and had fought in the Chechen War that began in 1999. He said he arrived here last week with several dozen men to join a pro-Russian militia group.

The scene at the hospital was new evidence that fighters from Russia are an increasingly visible part of the conflict here, a development that raises new questions about that country’s role in the unrest. Moscow has denied that its regular soldiers are part of the conflict, and there is no evidence that they are. But motley assortments of fighters from other war zones that are intimately associated with Russia would be unlikely to surface against the powerful will of the Russian president, Vladimir V. Putin, experts said.

The disclosure of Russian nationals among the fighters here muddies an already murky picture of the complex connections and allegiances that are beginning to form. While their presence does not draw a straight line to the Kremlin, it raises the possibility of a more subtle Russian game that could keep Ukraine unbalanced for years.

The revelation about foreign fighters received an unexpected official confirmation on Tuesday, when the mayor of Donetsk, Aleksandr A. Lukyanchenko, said at least eight people with Russian passports were among the wounded rebels who had been taken to the city’s hospitals.

He said the Russians were from Moscow and from the cities of Grozny and Gudermes in Chechnya, a republic that is part of Russia and whose leader, Ramzan Kadyrov, was installed by the Kremlin to bring the region under control after bitter wars starting in the 1990s. On Tuesday, Mr. Kadyrov denied any connection to the fighters.

Mr. Lukyanchenko added that residents of Crimea, the peninsula in the Black Sea that Russia seized in March, were also among the wounded.

The Kremlin has said it would work with the government of Petro O. Poroshenko, the Ukrainian billionaire elected in a landslide on Sunday, who accepted congratulations from President Obama on Tuesday.

Mr. Poroshenko has pledged to crush the separatists who seized public buildings in two regions in eastern Ukraine in March. But Russia’s foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, suggested Tuesday that ending the violence would be a criterion for improved relations, a line that could leave Ukraine’s new government in a tight spot.

Many here say the fighters speak to the shadowy nature of a conflict that sometimes seems manufactured. “It’s irritating but not very surprising,” said Stanislav Kucherenko, 32, a massage therapist who lives near the airport and woke to the sound of shelling Tuesday. “It shows that this war is not clean. It is artificially created. If this is an uprising by the Donetsk People’s Republic, what are foreigners doing here?”

The men are Donetsk’s worst kept secret. Several appeared on a CNN report at a military parade this weekend, and others were caught on a Vice News video, saying, “We are volunteers, Chechens, Afghans and Muslims who have come to protect Russia, to protect Russians, to protect the interests of this country.”

It is unclear what portion of the rebel fighters the men represent, whom they work for or whether they were paid. The soldier at the hospital Tuesday said all the men were volunteers, a commonly given explanation but one locals say is not convincing.

“They say they are patriots,” Mr. Kucherenko said of the foreign fighters. “I don’t think there are that many patriots.”

The Chechen fighter at the hospital, who declined to give his name, seemed to be losing his resolve. The unit had a commander who had given an order to stay and fight for the city. Otherwise, he said, he would be happy to go home. “I haven’t slept for four nights,” he said, resting his head on a wooden bench outside the hospital with a Kalashnikov across his knees.

Donetsk was mostly quiet on Tuesday. Schools were closed, and residents were warned not to leave their homes. But signs of Monday’s battle remained. A truck that had been carrying rebel fighters and was hit by Ukrainians lay on its side.

Many pro-Russian residents praised the foreign fighters, saying they were all that stood between them and what they saw as a hostile Ukrainian force from Kiev. Yevgeny Matvichyuk, 26, who is from the embattled city of Slovyansk, said he had spoken with two foreign fighters, one from North Ossetia, a republic in Russia, and another from Tajikistan in Central Asia.

“They said we came from Russia to help you,” he said standing at the bus depot in Donetsk. “What’s wrong with that?”

Russia is hypocrisy embodied. On one hand, they say "we want to talk with the new Ukraine government - if it stops the violence", on the other they actively foment unrest and cause the violence.

They're like a guy speaking to his neighbour whose house if on fire, promising to help him rebuild as soon the fire is extinguished, while at the same time he's pouring petrol onto the fire behind his back.

This is how Putinist Russia operates - lies, duplicity, dishonesty. A rogue state.
 
If I'm wrong about that, correct me, but it would be very unfortunate to hear that support of fascism in Europe is indeed as high as your diagram shows.
Are you interested in the actual politics involved, or in what can be called "Fascist" in Russia?

The diagram indicates right wing populists. Some of them actually are Fascsits (or even Nazis, like the Golden Dawn). Domen just referred to them all as "Fascists".

Put it like this:
Among the western Europen right-wing populists, the support for anything like what Zhirinovsky represents in Russian politics is rather lower than for the kind of value-conservative, pro-nation politics Putin represents. Both of which might well fit into the definition of righ-wing populists in western European politics.
 
Is zhyd/zhydovka pejorative in Ukraine?
Yes, it is an ethnic slur. "Moscal" is too. The statement declares specific ethnic groups as enemies of Ukrainian state.

Today's news so far.
Rubezhnoe, Lugansk region - Ukrainian army attempted to seize town, attack was repelled.
Donetsk - shootings at the "secured" international airport continue. According to unconfirmed reports, fighter jets were seen over the city again.
 
Are you interested in the actual politics involved, or in what can be called "Fascist" in Russia?

The diagram indicates right wing populists. Some of them actually are Fascsits (or even Nazis, like the Golden Dawn). Domen just referred to them all as "Fascists".

Put it like this:
Among the western Europen right-wing populists, the support for anything like what Zhirinovsky represents in Russian politics is rather lower than for the kind of value-conservative, pro-nation politics Putin represents. Both of which might well fit into the definition of righ-wing populists in western European politics.

A bit of northern euro bickering over some kilometers at Munster (while Russia expands massively to the east), but i have to ask:

What makes GD "Nazi" while the nice Danish/French/Finnish/Hungarian parties of that ilk 'fascist'?
Also: is fascist a milder form of nazi? Cause the Ustase supposedly were mostly fascist, but i would not use the term 'mild' to describe them ;)
 
Another backlash of Kievan actions - as I said earlier, workers of 4 mines in Donbass went on strike protesting against military operation in the region.
Now, miners rally under DPR flags, threatening to take weapons and join rebel forces:


Link to video.
 
Yep, I am sure miners are overjoyed at the prospect of becoming an isolated black hole in Europe with no exports and no opportunity to engage with Western markets :lol:

The separatist propaganda is getting funnier with every passing day. I take it as a sign of desperation.

---

Also, I wonder what the political commissars here in this thread (red_elk et al.) wish to be the outcome of this. So far they only seem to be cheering to whatever makes life of Kiev, which they claim in the face of all evidence is controlled by the West/Neonazi militias) more difficult, without offering any reasonable way out that would be acceptable to Ukraine in general.

This sort of cynical, pigheaded spoilerism may be the current policy of the separatists (and Russia as the rogue state it is) but it is utterly aimless and hopeless in the long run. You cannot build a future on it.

Clearly, the best way forward now is for the separatists to lay down arms, dissolve their separatist organisations in exchange for amnesty, renounce violence and join the political process as a constructive actor in domestic politics. The longer they persist in this insane insurrection against the central government, the longer will the violence drag on.
 
^I don't see that happening. Would whole regions just put the death happening the last month(s) behind for "amnesty"? It was virtually unworkable in the old days, without mass media and internet. Now with endless thousands of photos of the deaths, i think it is safe to conclude it is impossible.
 
More data about miners rally. They are saying that it is just a small warning demonstration and they stopped working of only four mines so far. More to come, if army attacks won't stop.
Spoiler :


Rebels receiving reinforcements in Donetsk. Scary Chechens, etc.
Spoiler :
 
^I don't see that happening. Would whole regions just put the death happening the last month(s) behind for "amnesty"? It was virtually unworkable in the old days, without mass media and internet. Now with endless thousands of photos of the deaths, i think it is safe to conclude it is impossible.

Both sides can either accept that they've suffered losses, negotiate and stop the fighting,

or

they can continue until one side wins. Considering the power ratio, the Donetsk/Luhansk separatists are likely to lose eventually. The "best" they can achieve is a stalemate, which would be economically absolutely catastrophic for the regions they claim to represent.

Kiev won't give amnesty to foreign fighters and those who killed people. It might give amnesty to the political leadership, who may then enter politics and defend their regions' interests in a civilized way.

But time's running out. The more violent the separatists get, the more they attack the central government, the harder the response will be. Eventually, Kiev's patience will run out and once the new government consolidates power, it will crush the separatists by force.
 
Kiev won't give amnesty to foreign fighters and those who killed people. It might give amnesty to the political leadership, who may then enter politics and defend their regions' interests in a civilized way.
Another Maidan? I think we may have prettry soon. Ukrainian economy is getting worse, Poroshenko himself looks like Yanukvitch v1.1, fight in the East does not seem to be resolved soon.

But time's running out. The more violent the separatists get, the more they attack the central government, the harder the response will be. Eventually, Kiev's patience will run out and once the new government consolidates power, it will crush the separatists by force.
Provided they have such force and Russia will not install no-fly zone to protect civilians.
 
Poroshenko does not hurry to sign a deal with EU. Well, only a crazy or fully corrupt politician would sign it.

BRUSSELS—The winner of Sunday's presidential election in Ukraine has told senior European Union leaders he wants some time before committing to a major economic and political deal with the bloc, according to more than half a dozen officials briefed on conversations.

Officials say they have seen no evidence that incoming Ukrainian president-elect Petro Poroshenko is wavering on the agreement, and they still expect him to finalize the deal over the next couple of months. But they say the chocolate billionaire has sent the message that he will approach the Europeans when he is ready.

A spokeswoman for Mr. Poroshenko said the incoming president will discuss the timing of the signature of the rest of the accord after he meets some European leaders late next week in Poland.
 
Provided they have such force and Russia will not install no-fly zone to protect civilians.
This is something that I've noticed throughout your posts in this thread. Are you trying to draw a parallel to the Libyan crisis?

In Libya, NATO did not say "well, we want this part of Libya so lets send our troops in and secure it". In Libya there was an uprising of the native population against the tyrannical government of Gaddafi. NATO chose to support that uprising.

That is not the same as creating ethnic tension in a foreign country where previously there was none and then sending troops and arms into that country in order to annex its territory.

The USA did not annex Libya in the way that Russia did in Crimea and is attempting to do in east Ukraine. The comparison is bizarre.
 
This is something that I've noticed throughout your posts in this thread. Are you trying to draw a parallel to the Libyan crisis?
No, I just use an Anglo-Saxon language. When Anglo-Saxons install no-fly zone they do it "to protect civilians". I suggest Russia to do the same.

In Libya, NATO did not say "well, we want this part of Libya so lets send our troops in and secure it". In Libya there was an uprising of the native population against the tyrannical government of Gaddafi. NATO chose to support that uprising.
Russia does not have now plans to annex East Ukraine. But there is an uprising there against tyrannical Kievan junta. Russia, it seems, chose to support this uprising.

That is not the same as creating ethnic tension in a foreign country where previously there was none and then sending troops and arms into that country in order to annex its territory.
Crimea is a unique case. It should not be taken by Anglo-Saxons as precedent.

The USA did not annex Libya in the way that Russia did in Crimea and is attempting to do in east Ukraine. The comparison is bizarre.
USA does much worse: it creates havoc, chaos, then leaves a failed country and millions dead behind.
 
This is something that I've noticed throughout your posts in this thread. Are you trying to draw a parallel to the Libyan crisis?

In Libya, NATO did not say "well, we want this part of Libya so lets send our troops in and secure it". In Libya there was an uprising of the native population against the tyrannical government of Gaddafi. NATO chose to support that uprising.

That is not the same as creating ethnic tension in a foreign country where previously there was none and then sending troops and arms into that country in order to annex its territory.

The USA did not annex Libya in the way that Russia did in Crimea and is attempting to do in east Ukraine. The comparison is bizarre.

I am afraid they're too deep in doublethink to see that.
 
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