USA Foreign Policy

[Zkribbler]

Also spracht Wikipedia:

"Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce...

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[8] Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.[8] Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.[9][10][11][12] Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[13]"

============================

Trump = authoritarian, nationalistic, desires dictatorial powers so he doesn't have to deal with congressional independence, suppresses opposition by ridiculing tweets and lies, hates liberal democracy with its free press, freedom of religions of which he does not approve,& freedom of thought, wants a one-party Republican government. He's expanding the military while placing generals in key civilian positions, wants a national unity without all those pesky immigrants, has embraced violence by asking his followers to beat up demonstrators ["I'll pay your legal bills"} and inciting hatred of reporters; has bragged he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and nothing would happen to him. Threatens military strikes, trade wars & protectionism.

Yep, Trump is a fascist.

 

[Kyriakos]

Also from also spracht wikipedia:

If you look long enough into the cia, the cia looks back at you

 

[onejayhawk]

Also spracht Wikipedia:

"Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce...

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[8] Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.[8] Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.[9][10][11][12] Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[13]"

============================

Trump = authoritarian, nationalistic, desires dictatorial powers so he doesn't have to deal with congressional independence, suppresses opposition by ridiculing tweets and lies, hates liberal democracy with its free press, freedom of religions of which he does not approve,& freedom of thought, wants a one-party Republican government. He's expanding the military while placing generals in key civilian positions, wants a national unity without all those pesky immigrants, has embraced violence by asking his followers to beat up demonstrators ["I'll pay your legal bills"} and inciting hatred of reporters; has bragged he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and nothing would happen to him. Threatens military strikes, trade wars & protectionism.

Yep, Trump is a fascist.

Are you seriously saying that Trump is promoting national unity and a stable, orderly society?

Also from also spracht wikipedia:

I thought that was the IRS.

J

 

[Berzerker]

suppresses opposition by ridiculing tweets and lies

Yep, Trump is a fascist.

hehe...c'mon

 

[Perfection]

All I know is it wasn't the counterprotestors at unite the right who were flying nazi flags

 

[Berzerker]

Trump wasn't there, I'd think he and his family would have a more substantial disgust with Nazis than most people

 

[Zkribbler]

Are you seriously saying that Trump is promoting national unity and a stable, orderly society?

"Promoting" implies "achieving," so no. He desires national unity and a stable, orderly society; he demands it. --But he has no clue how to achieve it.

 

[metatron]

http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

Ooooh. A list. I like lists.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Democrats wear the pins too. Flags everywhere. Apparently one can't sell a toilet brush in America without invoking The Flag.
And Clinton and Kerry managed to summarily offend the feces out of me with their exceptionalist rhetoric.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Widespread bipartisan approval for "torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.", today or at least very recently (i.e. when confronted with such "need")?
Check, check, check, check and check.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Well, US citizenry merely fails to agree on the scapegoat these days.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

If Democrats morphed into Ron Paul recently i must have missed that.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

New drinking game:
A shot whenever a Democratic polititcian starts an otherwise incoherent and/or indefensible argument with the words "as a woman and as a mother".
And yes, there are highly developed countries where this virtually never happens.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Ok, i have to give you that one.
Like there's an argument to be made about similar tendencies and an underlying common pathology, but the difference in magnitude is pretty striking.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

"There'll be genocide in Libya and then Al Qaida will be there."
"This is the red line."
"Khorasan! Khorasan!"

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Ok, i give you another point.
But i shall also insert this into the record: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3IIAdcW8AAI8sC.jpg

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

We don't have to argue about this, do we?

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

America, the only country where cashiers and factory workers don't have unions but teachers - inexplicably - do.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

Where to start?
Tosh.0? Gamergate? Rapey GoT?

(If you want to argue the scope of the point i will get back with: So the fundamental human activity "art" is subject to licensing now?)

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Check, check, check, check and check.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

See #9

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Spoiler :

And Democrats are also all over felon reenfranchisement, right? Right?​

But, fine, i'll give you the point.​

So 3/14 is better than 0/14 is what you're saying?
Still looks like a failing grade to me...

Also spracht Wikipedia:

sprach
Strong verb. Kudos though.

 

[AdrienIer]

The difference is also that there is debate inside the democratic party about most of the things on this list. I would name numbers 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 10, 12 and 13 where a whole wing of the party (one who almost won the last primary) is substantially better than both the other side and the republicans. And I'm being kind by not stating all the numbers

 

[Berzerker]

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

We even pledge our allegiance to the flag each school day

 

[Berzerker]

The difference is also that there is debate inside the democratic party about most of the things on this list. I would name numbers 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 10, 12 and 13 where a whole wing of the party (one who almost won the last primary) is substantially better than both the other side and the republicans. And I'm being kind by not stating all the numbers

aint much of a debate about who controls the economy, Democrats are more interventionist in general

 

[onejayhawk]

Getting back to the subject of the thread, N. Korea puts off a test. White House tweets victory.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-idUSKCN1AU04U

Diplomacy or luck?

From last week, op/ed by Henry Kissinger:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-resolve-the-north-korea-crisis-1502489292

J

 

[Perfection]

Getting back to the subject of the thread, N. Korea puts off a test. White House tweets victory.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-idUSKCN1AU04U

Diplomacy or luck?

NK hold off on an action it threatened in response to Trump's saber rattling?

On Trump's overall score-card that's at best a push.

The real question is if Trump can actually get them to make any substantial changes to their nuclear and missile ambitions.

The only substantial US foreign policy victory there has been on the topic was getting China to agree to further economic sanctions. That was a good thing. However, Trump's incendiary actions didn't help bring that about and will likely make further negotiations more difficult.

Didn't read the WSJ article because of the paywall.

 

[onejayhawk]

NK hold off on an action it threatened in response to Trump's saber rattling? On Trump's overall score-card that's at best a push. The real question is if Trump can actually get them to make any substantial changes to their nuclear and missile ambitions. The only substantial US foreign policy victory there has been on the topic was getting China to agree to further economic sanctions. That is actually a good thing. However, Trump's incendiary actions didn't help bring that about.

Didn't read the WSJ article because of the paywall.

I guess that counts in the luck column.

Funny. I did not get hit by a paywall. Here is the concluding paragraph:

A North Korea retaining an interim weapons capability would institutionalize permanent risks:

• that a penurious Pyongyang might sell nuclear technology;
• that American efforts may be perceived as concentrating on protecting its own territory, while leaving the rest of Asia exposed to nuclear blackmail;
• that other countries may pursue nuclear deterrent against Pyongyang, one another or, in time, the U.S.;
• that frustration with the outcome will take the form of mounting conflict with China;
• that proliferation may accelerate in other regions;
• that the American domestic debate may become more divisive.

Substantial progress toward denuclearization—and its attainment in a brief period—is the most prudent course.
​

J

 

[Perfection]

I guess that counts in the luck column.

As long as it's not considered evidence for competence I won't complain.

Funny. I did not get hit by a paywall. Here is the concluding paragraph:

A North Korea retaining an interim weapons capability would institutionalize permanent risks:

• that a penurious Pyongyang might sell nuclear technology;
• that American efforts may be perceived as concentrating on protecting its own territory, while leaving the rest of Asia exposed to nuclear blackmail;
• that other countries may pursue nuclear deterrent against Pyongyang, one another or, in time, the U.S.;
• that frustration with the outcome will take the form of mounting conflict with China;
• that proliferation may accelerate in other regions;
• that the American domestic debate may become more divisive.

Substantial progress toward denuclearization—and its attainment in a brief period—is the most prudent course.
​

J

I certainly agree with the end of denuclearization, however, I don't see Trump's posturing as wise means to help those ends.

When it comes to diplomacy I feel Teddy Roosevelt summed it up nicely with the "speak softly, and carry a big stick" approach. All verbally antagonizing Kim Jong-Un does is make him more likely to behave rashly.

Talking peacefully while moving carrier groups to the area and making a concerted effort to get the Chinese to act in a unified manner is the correct course of action.

I will credit Rex Tillerson with some good damage control.

My guess as to what will actually go down is Trump will figure out some way to pay NK a nuclear ransom in exchange for some empty promises. He'll declare victory while kicking the can down the road.

Sadly that's about as good as I think it can get here. War would be a disaster.

A more popular and trustworthy president (both foreign and domestic) would be in a better position to engage the Chinese so we could act in a joint manner. I don't see Trump doing that.

 

[metalhead]

If there is any silver lining to having a racist buffoon as president, it's that other countries will be willing to listen to all the voices inside our government telling them to ignore him.

There are several problems with this, one of the more serious ones being that we have no idea what Trump foreign policy even is. He keeps declaring that strategic patience is at an end, but he's ceding the North Korea problem to China just like every other president has done, only more explicitly.

 

[Berzerker]

the difference between trump and his predecessors is he's a bit more unpredictable and sabre rattling works both ways, NK will back down because it wont risk a pre-emptive response to its threats much less the retaliation that would follow dropping a missile near or on Guam

hell, if NK did something like that China would probably take them out just so we dont end up with the whole country

 

[Kyriakos]

^A US pre-emptive bombing would not really see the US looking non-pariah either, moreso if it is followed by (somewhat expected...) retaliation with nukes. Several entities, including post ww2 US in the early cold war, and Soviet union in the late cold war, had as a stated official policy that if X attacks Y, they will be forced to use nuclear weapons to retaliate. It looks as if Kim is actually saner than Trump, and that isn't cause for celebration.

 

[Lexicus]

Just the opposite. Regulation of corporations is a defining characteristic of fascism. Corporatism is fascism's natural enemy. Oil and water.

Fascism is literally a type of corporatism

 

[Takhisis]

Back on the international front… elsewhere on this forum I've seen claims that Trump has united Latin America on Venezuela's side. No, no, no. They oppose military intervention. Nobody's winning any elections on a ‘support delusional autocrats’ in any countries without an electoral college.

Calling him fascist is erroneous and poorly informed.

Ah-ha.