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Welfare State vs. High Minimum Wage

Tani Coyote

Son of Huehuecoyotl
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
15,191
Put simply, which do you believe is better? Is a government that cares for all needs itself, or a government that enforces a high standard of living, better?

Personally, I'm more in favor of a high minimum wage. It keeps money out of the hands of politicians, while it also rewards people who work more(whereas most welfare systems seem to focus on filling in the gaps beneath a certain income level, such as Friedman's proposed system, plus welfare systems only benefit the poorest usually). A higher minimum wage, in theory, could thus equal lower taxes(we still need some government, never mind it's size; we also need some unemployment benefits) while also biting welfare thieves in the rear.

I'm sure large businesses wouldn't mind either, as the net gain from lower taxes would probably greatly exceed the costs of more employment. I do however, fear for small businesses, which would find themselves hard-pressed to keep people employed. Perhaps this can be solved with employees being able to work for less if they consent to it; however, the business should always be required to offer the minimum wage if the employee does not ask for less.

Anywho, post your own views and discuss! :)
 
It's definitely high minimum wage. For some here it is more profitable not to work than to work. This situation need to be reversed. Both welfare and minimum wage should be present, but situations like this should not arise. Those who are able and choose to work should not be penalised.
 
High minimum wage is better. But most people forget that there will never be jobs for everyone able and willing to work, much less for those that are not able to work. Welfare is still necessary for that. But that said, wages should always be high enough to discourage welfare. Meaning that even at the bottom people should be able to earn enough so that they do not need welfare. That encourages people to chose to be self sufficient. If people cannot be self sufficient through their own work, then they are discouraged from working at all. If people can't have health care for themselves and their children through work, then they rationally decide that welfare is the better choice.
 
I've always thought that welfare should become progressively minimal the longer you stay on it. Along with incentives to get off welfare and work, educate.
 
High minimum wage would result in those whose work is worth less than that wage to not receive jobs. It would be like a recession: if you have a job, everything's great; if not, you're screwed.
 
I've always thought that welfare should become progressively minimal the longer you stay on it. Along with incentives to get off welfare and work, educate.

That's usually how it works, but you keep some sort of minimal support for those that still don't get anything.
 
It's not a "one or the other" thing.

This country has both; they don't serve exactly the same purpose. I'm not saying either program needs to be expanded, but neither needs much cutting, either.
 
Why is this an either-or proposition?
 
Put simply, which do you believe is better? Is a government that cares for all needs itself, or a government that enforces a high standard of living, better?

Personally, I'm more in favor of a high minimum wage. It keeps money out of the hands of politicians, while it also rewards people who work more(whereas most welfare systems seem to focus on filling in the gaps beneath a certain income level, such as Friedman's proposed system, plus welfare systems only benefit the poorest usually). A higher minimum wage, in theory, could thus equal lower taxes(we still need some government, never mind it's size; we also need some unemployment benefits) while also biting welfare thieves in the rear.

I'm sure large businesses wouldn't mind either, as the net gain from lower taxes would probably greatly exceed the costs of more employment. I do however, fear for small businesses, which would find themselves hard-pressed to keep people employed. Perhaps this can be solved with employees being able to work for less if they consent to it; however, the business should always be required to offer the minimum wage if the employee does not ask for less.

Anywho, post your own views and discuss! :)

The thing to consider is that it's overinflating the value of goods, whatever label you put on it. If government is mandated to reinvest in it's people somehow, I'd consider education scholarships, incentives for start-up businesses, incentives for businesses to hire and train new employees to be very much preferable to a welfare state, and preferable to a large minimum wage.

Consider that a welfare state starts with a mandate that government will provide all services that a citizen needs, yet that mandate isn't enough; Individuals in the society have to work and make goods that the economy needs, or the goods just won't exist, regardless of any government mandates. If a significant fraction of the population is dependent upon the welfare state, there reaches a tipping point where the technology of the society can't compensate for the inflation that comes from giving free goods and services to non-working individuals. Government has to raise taxes to compensate, which in turn can create a negative feedback loop that businesses are reluctant to hire more employees, and therefore more people become in need of welfare. Eventually, that just leads to a back door kind of communism, where the government has to order the people on welfare to work. In sum, such a system is not at all desirable.

A high minimum wage is a better option than a welfare state, for sure, but consider that too has problems. The most obvious problem is if the country has to compete in a world economy (which ours does to date). A high minimum wage inflates the value of the products we sell, which makes them less competitive in the world market. That can lead to two outcomes---1. we have to go protectionist, not deal with the world for the most part, but then we miss out on the benefits of the world economy; 2. we stay open market but our economy stagnates---(e.g. the price of our goods vs. their goods means we don't sell as much products, less people are employed). If we go protectionist, we'll probably just end up with inflation---not necessarily impossible inflation if we have a strong domestic economy, but it's not a highly desirable situation. If we stay open market and the economy staganates, then people are actually outbidding themselves with high minimum wage, because no business can afford to employ them----leads to unemployed people, and might lead to the welfare state eventually.

IMO, the best option is to grow the economy, and that means investing in the people and country so the economy can expand, improve technologically, and be competitive against the world market. There's no guarantee that it can be achieved, but if it can, then I believe that investing as I state above at the beginning----educational opportunities, incentives for new businesses, incentives for businesses to grow and train new people, etc... is the way to go. But still keeping an economy continually growing is maybe impossible, and something I suspect that economists don't know how achieve infinitely.

If you really don't like that answer, then I'd go with a modified version of minimum wage. Rather than say everyone gets the same minimum wage, establish that certain key jobs in areas that the government feels the economy can grow, and give higher minimum wages for those jobs. De Facto, the government does that by trickle down approach, if the government gives large tax breaks and other financial incentives to specific industries (e.g. alternative energy).
 
I've always thought that welfare should become progressively minimal the longer you stay on it.

I believe some states do use that approach.
 
Rather have a high mimumum wage. I want to make the most money I can and not be in the poverty level and poor.
 
High minimum wage would result in those whose work is worth less than that wage to not receive jobs. It would be like a recession: if you have a job, everything's great; if not, you're screwed.

The problem is that wages are not determined by productivity, they are determined by supply and demand. So wages can easily be a long way below productivity. Without a minimum wage wages fall below subsistence.
 
Put simply, which do you believe is better? Is a government that cares for all needs itself, or a government that enforces a high standard of living, better?

Personally, I'm more in favor of a high minimum wage. It keeps money out of the hands of politicians, while it also rewards people who work more(whereas most welfare systems seem to focus on filling in the gaps beneath a certain income level, such as Friedman's proposed system, plus welfare systems only benefit the poorest usually). A higher minimum wage, in theory, could thus equal lower taxes(we still need some government, never mind it's size; we also need some unemployment benefits) while also biting welfare thieves in the rear.

I'm sure large businesses wouldn't mind either, as the net gain from lower taxes would probably greatly exceed the costs of more employment. I do however, fear for small businesses, which would find themselves hard-pressed to keep people employed. Perhaps this can be solved with employees being able to work for less if they consent to it; however, the business should always be required to offer the minimum wage if the employee does not ask for less.

Anywho, post your own views and discuss! :)

Neither, welfare state perpetuates generational poverty and the minimum wage makes it harder for the unskilled to get jobs and start climbing the ladder. Oh, a high min wage does not keep money out of the hands of politicians, they get a chunk of that thru various taxes...
 
... Haahaa. I love how the "Things Republicans hate" tag... :lol:
 
The root issue is to balance moral hazard and labour demand. This can be done by simultaneously addressing the two problems through improving information and education/retraining + good job 'matchmaking' platforms respectively. There must be a reliable way to determine who really needs welfare on one hand and effective education or retraining programmes to help those whose labour demand is below the market price set by minimum wages on the other. But there will inevitably be people who remain like that, especially as your society still needs some people in very low-skilled jobs.

Ultimately, and this is where information becomes important, you have to provide just enough welfare so as not to make a low-skilled worker indifferent between working and not working. I think that's possible. Good job 'matchmaking' platforms can help workers and employers find each other, even in the case of low-skilled jobs. Subsidise employers if necessary. Then if a worker is not employed and not actively involved in looking for employment through those platforms, gradually cut back on welfare until behaviour changes. If there is still no change when the worker's living standards is getting dangerously low, then other measures would have to be taken.
 
I'm increasingly suspicious of the minimum wage. While it's not the disaster that the loony right claims, it doesn't seem to work either, at least not in most scenarios. In some regions a minimum wage could have benefits, but rather small and dubious even then. Instead, I prefer that the minimum wage be replaced with collective bargaining, EITC, guaranteed minimum income, etc, which I think are much more effective.
 
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