Where is Poland?
- Thread starter NickyJ
- Start date
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Mise said:
Ukraine is divided - Western Ukraine is pro-European, Eastern Ukraine (which has a significant ethnic Russian minority) - pro-Russian.
Which policy dominates in a particular year, depends on who is in charge in the Ukrainian government (e.g. after the Orange Revolution, Ukraine was definitely pro-European - but incompetent leadership of the "Orange Camp" discouraged some people from that pro-European course, nowadays it is more like 50/50).
Belarus - most of Belarussian people are pro-European, but they are tyrannized by Lukashenko's regime. Belarus is not free, it is a totalitarian regime.
Significant ethnic Russian minority in Belarus is also a problem - they are supporting Mother Russia, rather than pro-European opposition in Belarus.
In my opinion Poland has currently a historic mission of encouraging Belarus and Ukraine to join the European Union.
President Lech Kaczynski understood this - but our current leadership is more busy with showing their friendly pro-Russian attitude to "Tsar" Vladimir Putin.
And the policy of discouraging Ukraine and Belarus from pro-Russian course is, obviously, in itself excluding friendly and warm relations with Russia.
Russia considers Ukraine and Belarus as "Russian sphere of influence". Lukashenko's regime in Belarus is neither too pro-European, nor too pro-Russian - but it is definitely more hostile to Europe, because Europe demands respecting human rights by his regime, while Russia is silent about his illegal actions.
Regarding Ukraine - here Russia has got an important mean of political coercion - gas supplies. Ukraine is dependent on Russian gas.
As long as Angela Merkel's government and Germany in general is more pro-Russian than pro-Polish, it will be hard to drag Belarus and Ukraine out of Russian sphere of influence and to encourage them to finally join the European Union (although Ukraine is clearly much closer to achieving this than Belarus).
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Poland isn't Balkan.
madviking
north american scum
Or is it?
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Balkon.
Balkon means balcony in Polish.
Balkon means balcony in Polish.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Regions of Europe, for the hard of understanding:
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Again ??? We were never all part of Germany. Learn history.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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Regions of Europe, for the hard of understanding:
Is this before or after the Pictish genocide?
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Traitorfish and the map he posted:
Reichskomissariat Ostland and Reichskomissariat Ukraine included Polish territories (that belonged to Poland in 1939) that were not part of Nazi Germany.
General Government was also not part of Nazi Germany, but a distinct administrative unit of German-occupied territory, contrary to what the map says.
Reichskomissariat Ostland and Reichskomissariat Ukraine included Polish territories (that belonged to Poland in 1939) that were not part of Nazi Germany.
General Government was also not part of Nazi Germany, but a distinct administrative unit of German-occupied territory, contrary to what the map says.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Since when was India part of the British Isles?
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
I didn't know Iceland was British-occupied during WW2.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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Parts of India are definitely part of the British Isles.Since when was India part of the British Isles?
Hounslow, Harrow, Leicester, for some random examples.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
The theory was that we pre-emptively liberated it from Nazi occupation. Apparently you're allowed to do that, provided you have lots of guns and bombs and such, and the country you're pre-liberating have almost none.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Traitorfish - your map of Scotia is nice, but you forgot to include Poland into "Greater Scotia".
I think it is justified to include Poland into "Greater Scotia", rather than "Outer Scotia".
Why? Because there was a quite significant Scottish minority in Poland in the 17th century. Scotsmen started to emigrate to Poland in the 16th century*. By ca. year 1600 already around 30,000 Scotsmen lived in the Crown of Poland - and in 1603 Abraham Jung was nominated "Leader of all Scotsmen in Poland".
Scottish mercenaries also often served in the Polish armies of the era. They were good as infantry.
In 1620 another Scotsman - James Murray - became a servitor–architectus navalis of the Polish Navy.
There is a record book of the Scottish community in Lublin (nowadays in Eastern Poland) called "Zielona Księga" ("the Green Book") in Polish and titled "Original Records of those Scots in Poland known as the Scottish Brotherhood at Lublin" in Scottish / English. It covers years 1680 - 1731.
However, by early 1700s almost all of Scottish diaspora in Poland assimilated themselves with ethnic Poles and immigration from Scotland also disappeared.
We know Polonized versions of some Scottish surnames who later underwent Polonization (in brackets original Scottish version):
Czamer (Chalmers), Czochran (Cochrane), Dziaksen (Jackson), Kabron (Cockburn), Machlejd (Macleod), Szynkler (Sinclair)
Ketling (Hassling–Ketling of Elgin) was a Polonized Scotsman fighting in the Polish army in the 1670s.
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*Actually some small groups of Scotsmen came to Poland already in the late 14th and the 15th centuries. One of districts of the city of Gdansk was even called "Nowe Szkoty" ("New Scots"). First Scotsmen settled in Gdansk already in 1380 (at that time it was still part of the Teutonic State).
In years 1438 and 1453 two Scottish students studied at the University of Cracow (Kraków, southern Poland).
James Kabrun - a rich Scottish merchant from Gdansk - financed the construction of the Opera House in this city.
Scots were actually called "Szoci" or "Szotowie" at that time in Polish language (modern form is "Szkoci" - so as you can see "k" was added).
There are also several villages called "Szkocja" ("Scotland") in Poland - they were originally inhabited by immigrants from Scotland:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szkocja_(województwo_podlaskie)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szkocja_(województwo_kujawsko-pomorskie)
I think it is justified to include Poland into "Greater Scotia", rather than "Outer Scotia".
Why? Because there was a quite significant Scottish minority in Poland in the 17th century. Scotsmen started to emigrate to Poland in the 16th century*. By ca. year 1600 already around 30,000 Scotsmen lived in the Crown of Poland - and in 1603 Abraham Jung was nominated "Leader of all Scotsmen in Poland".
Scottish mercenaries also often served in the Polish armies of the era. They were good as infantry.
In 1620 another Scotsman - James Murray - became a servitor–architectus navalis of the Polish Navy.
There is a record book of the Scottish community in Lublin (nowadays in Eastern Poland) called "Zielona Księga" ("the Green Book") in Polish and titled "Original Records of those Scots in Poland known as the Scottish Brotherhood at Lublin" in Scottish / English. It covers years 1680 - 1731.
However, by early 1700s almost all of Scottish diaspora in Poland assimilated themselves with ethnic Poles and immigration from Scotland also disappeared.
We know Polonized versions of some Scottish surnames who later underwent Polonization (in brackets original Scottish version):
Czamer (Chalmers), Czochran (Cochrane), Dziaksen (Jackson), Kabron (Cockburn), Machlejd (Macleod), Szynkler (Sinclair)
Ketling (Hassling–Ketling of Elgin) was a Polonized Scotsman fighting in the Polish army in the 1670s.
==================================
*Actually some small groups of Scotsmen came to Poland already in the late 14th and the 15th centuries. One of districts of the city of Gdansk was even called "Nowe Szkoty" ("New Scots"). First Scotsmen settled in Gdansk already in 1380 (at that time it was still part of the Teutonic State).
In years 1438 and 1453 two Scottish students studied at the University of Cracow (Kraków, southern Poland).
James Kabrun - a rich Scottish merchant from Gdansk - financed the construction of the Opera House in this city.
Scots were actually called "Szoci" or "Szotowie" at that time in Polish language (modern form is "Szkoci" - so as you can see "k" was added).
There are also several villages called "Szkocja" ("Scotland") in Poland - they were originally inhabited by immigrants from Scotland:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szkocja_(województwo_podlaskie)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szkocja_(województwo_kujawsko-pomorskie)
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Well, I learned something today!
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
My pleasure. 
BTW - as I wrote, by early 1700s most of those Scotsmen who came to Poland in the 16th and 17th centuries, were Polonized.
And that immigration of Scotsmen to Poland in the 16th and early 17th century was mostly political-religious immigration (they were escaping from political turbulence and from religious persecutions - in Poland there was both religious tolerance at that time and also a relatively peaceful period).
But in the 19th century there was another wave of Scottish immigration - this time mostly professional labour force came to Poland.
There is a book about this 2nd wave of immigration - Mony K. McLeod, "Agents of Change: Scots in Poland 1800–1918", Tuckwell Press, Ltd., 2000.
BTW - as I wrote, by early 1700s most of those Scotsmen who came to Poland in the 16th and 17th centuries, were Polonized.
And that immigration of Scotsmen to Poland in the 16th and early 17th century was mostly political-religious immigration (they were escaping from political turbulence and from religious persecutions - in Poland there was both religious tolerance at that time and also a relatively peaceful period).
But in the 19th century there was another wave of Scottish immigration - this time mostly professional labour force came to Poland.
There is a book about this 2nd wave of immigration - Mony K. McLeod, "Agents of Change: Scots in Poland 1800–1918", Tuckwell Press, Ltd., 2000.
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