Why China risks war

So the Britain started to sell opium to China, and obviously China's government tried to fought this evil off

I thought the War on Drugs was a bad thing. I just can't keep up with this stuff. :(

The British are some devious bastards aren't they.

Bwah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah! Everything is part of our secret long term plan for world domination.

China couldn't slaughter the British and repopulate it with Chinese people back then :mischief:

You mean we missed out on having more hot Chinese women hanging around? God damn it!!! :mad:
 
poles are afraid of russia, russians are afraid of china, who are chinese afraid of?

When you can afford to loose half a billion people, and would probably be stronger as a nation for it in the long run, you don't fear outsiders. :p
 
I disagree. I'd say it is themselves. Which would be why they are so authoritarian.

I do not believe so, they might be afraid of nuclear holocaust, but the comes with the territory when you are a nuclear power. Their government dictates their authoritism, because of the type of government it is, not because they are afraid of themselves. And even if they were, they certainly are not afraid of the West.

When you can afford to loose half a billion people, and would probably be stronger as a nation for it in the long run, you don't fear outsiders. :p

I see your point, but I believe they could and probably would lose over a billion in a major conflict. We would have control of the sea for sure. The air war would be won by us, so we would have a major advantage in the ground war. The Japs had these advantages over China in WW2, and the Chinese split politically in two factions, still fought back and never gave in, no matter how many of their people died. They are not afraid of anything, I will tell you now. Not themselves thats for sure. It would be a long terrible war. This would be the case without nukes of course.
 
I do not believe so, they might be afraid of nuclear holocaust, but the comes with the territory when you are a nuclear power. Their government dictates their authoritism, because of the type of government it is, not because they are afraid of themselves. And even if they were, they certainly are not afraid of the West.

That is such huge azz shot-in-the-dark assumption it made me laugh.

Who knows what the Chinese government thinks? Are they afraid of the West? Maybe, in what way though? Is America going to invade tomorrow? No, they probably aren't afraid of that.

Are they afraid to go to war with us? Probably not the masses, but then again when was the last time the Chinese government told them the truth about their government?

Trust me dude, not saying this because I am American but you'd be hard pressed to find a country not ****ing themselves if we went to war with them. Our assets outweigh theirs at least 10 to 1.
 
Thanks everyone for contributing to this thread. In this post I will to address the opinions shared by posters. In the beginning I would like to note is that there were two types of arguments which were absolutely useless.

First one was: "It can not happen because it can not happen never". Well, Enoch Powell (British politician, writer and soldier) said once: "History is littered with wars which everybody knew would never happen." I remember that before 2008 South Ossetia war there were plenty of observers who claimed something like this "because nobody need real war conflict" or something like this. Shadylooking gets the medal "There-will-no-be-war":

I think you're off your rocker. There won't be a war with Japan vs China

Another one is that "Snorrius do not get economics/history/whatever". Saying opponents do not get something without explaining specifics is one of the known methods to wage forum wars, so I will discard this opinions in order to not provoke flaming and trolling by some unresponsible members. Two members get the honorary medals of "Ye-do-not-get-this":

So? You have a pretty 16th century view of how economy works. Perhaps other guys here will explain it to you, I am not really an economist.

Wow. Snorrius doesn't seem to understand economics, international relations, or history. Not really that rare, but it is when you're presenting a thesis combining all three.

Winner do not know how economy works but somehow knows my views are "16th century" (though Opium wars happened in 19th century).

Lord Baal allowed himself a daring remark here though he did not really show us his own understanding of economics, international relations or history.

Of course, one thing should be clear. Unlike economic predictions which are becoming true like incoming trains on a railroad, any political and military are much more uncertain, and like many noted here have lots of "if".

Answers

The easiest way how to make the Chinese import more of your products is to make China richer - because then it will be able to afford them. Examples: European luxury products)
The problem is that Chinese are not nearly such consumers like Europeans or Americans. They have very high savings ratio, and most of thing they consume they do themselves. The reason of this can be their isolationist mindset. So if they will be richer they will just save more.

Let's get something straight here. Great Britain at the time was a quasi-mercantilist state running on a Gold Standard, and it was that that directly caused all the problems of the China trade. Your understanding of economics and international trade does not appear to have advanced from that time either.
Obviously, the present and past situations are not equal 1:1. But in a way, USA is in a much worse situation now. GB just needed rights for trade in China back then, but now USA is risking its hegemony and control over valuable assets into which China is trying to convert its humongous savings.

You sound a little like that crazy Russian nut who thinks the U.S. will break up into 4 different nations "any day now."
Six, not four, and he is no more crazy than CIA.

I suggest you reconsider some of your beliefs in light of advances in the social sciences made in the last 2 centuries.
Umm? WWI, WWII and a certain superpower which starts a new war every few years - all occured within last 100 years.

Crazy scenario on many different levels. Has it ever occurred to you that the US trade deficit with China might decrease naturally as a result of a falling dollar and a rising yuan?
To do something with trade deficit and US debt falling dollar and a rising yuan will not suffice (floating rates model works perfectly only in ideal conditions, and in the case of dollar and yuan it is far from it). But you are right in that economy solution is possible, though I think most of people here will say "it is impossible" as well. Basicly USA needs to tariff everything from other states, hyperinflate dollar 3-5 times to erase internal and external debts, and reindustrialize the country.

A nation can very well live and prosper with trade deficits, even if the level of imbalance we saw in the last years is not healthy.
Only up to some extent as we see now. Those countries which had which had large negative imbalances and weaker economies are falling now (Baltics, Ukraine for example). US is just much more fatter, so it will need more time to experience all the consequences.

You also realize the Manchus are a very small minority in China now right? The language is close to being extinct and even most ethnic Manchus are assimilated into the Han culture.
Japan used the same excuse during WWII although Manchus were minority too back then.

And further, Snorrius really doesnt get economics. If China gets wealthy, that act likely helps reduce its trade imbalances with the rest of the world.
As I said earlier, if China will be richer they will just save more. And they tend to consume what they produce themselves.

About Japan

A lot of answers were about Japan, so I would like to elaborate on this.

The problem of Japan is that they are going to system crash. They were repressing negative tendencies during 90s using cheap money but now it is obvious this came to the end. Money which were used by carry traders are going back to country, exports are fallin greatly and so on. Within next years Japan economy will crash, and millions will become jobless. When people are poor and hungry they tend to accept radical solutions.

So how they can reboot economy after it will happen? Military industry is one of options available. War can give people jobs, meaning of life and give government excuses for harsh measuries against riots and such. China is one of the possible target of Japanese agression (if their government will choose war option). Other possible targets are Russia and South Asia (including Australia).

And if talk about military might of China and Japan, there some things to be considered. Yes, China's military is probably in the best shape then ever. But still it is not militaristic nation while Japanese are. And to dominate in war country is not bound to have bigger population (consider Nazi Germany which were able to easily conquer most of Europe). Indeed Japanese will need to expand their military industry but they are laborious nation. Personally, I think that in hypothetical China-Japan conflict Japanese has very high chances (if they will not go for all China of course).
 
So we can laugh more.
 
Japan is still militaristic, and needs to expand its military for an offensive war. Nice. :lol:
 
Why is this thread still open?

Because if war did occur would the US and her allies defeat China? That is the question, no one gives a hoot in hell why it could not possibly happen. Remember right before World War One, the main theory was that war was so far away, because things were going so well, because the prosperity of trade and financial stabilty were so prevalent (keep in mind that this was the main consensus, I am not talking about the old tattered Austro-Hungarian Empire, or the sick man of Europe, the Ottoman Empire, but the main thought of utopia anti-war fever, that was on the surface). Most people believed that war was obsolete, or that it was foolish to think of going to war, with everything going so well. War was most certainly not obsolete then, and it is not now.
And I do not care about any excuse why war could not or would not start, because as you know, war is never prevented when things look bright and there are unending good reasons for this not to happen. War is always a possibility at anytime. That is why the thread should remain open, and if it is closed, the military question should be answered in another thread. Besides it would be more interesting to talk about what would happen if a war broke out than, the boring concept of, no way this could not happen, it makes me laugh OMG! Mankind is no where near done with war, it confuses me that most people are so naive to the thought of this possibilty.

I agree with Snorrius on his thoughts, and to me he makes perfect sense. Why some of you others cannot see this is beyond me. I have loved and learned History since I could read, and this thought of war being a non possibilty is just not true.

Also, Snorrius leaves an obvious notion that History repeats it self, and keep in mind that History is replete with turning points. Japan could be one of these instances, and he is right in saying that some peoples dominate, while others are dominated. History teaches us these concepts, and History is made up of examples of why this is true.
 
Thanks everyone for contributing to this thread. In this post I will to address the opinions shared by posters. In the beginning I would like to note is that there were two types of arguments which were absolutely useless.

First one was: "It can not happen because it can not happen never". Well, Enoch Powell (British politician, writer and soldier) said once: "History is littered with wars which everybody knew would never happen." I remember that before 2008 South Ossetia war there were plenty of observers who claimed something like this "because nobody need real war conflict" or something like this. Shadylooking gets the medal "There-will-no-be-war":



Another one is that "Snorrius do not get economics/history/whatever". Saying opponents do not get something without explaining specifics is one of the known methods to wage forum wars, so I will discard this opinions in order to not provoke flaming and trolling by some unresponsible members. Two members get the honorary medals of "Ye-do-not-get-this":





Winner do not know how economy works but somehow knows my views are "16th century" (though Opium wars happened in 19th century).

Lord Baal allowed himself a daring remark here though he did not really show us his own understanding of economics, international relations or history.

Of course, one thing should be clear. Unlike economic predictions which are becoming true like incoming trains on a railroad, any political and military are much more uncertain, and like many noted here have lots of "if".

Answers


The problem is that Chinese are not nearly such consumers like Europeans or Americans. They have very high savings ratio, and most of thing they consume they do themselves. The reason of this can be their isolationist mindset. So if they will be richer they will just save more.


Obviously, the present and past situations are not equal 1:1. But in a way, USA is in a much worse situation now. GB just needed rights for trade in China back then, but now USA is risking its hegemony and control over valuable assets into which China is trying to convert its humongous savings.


Six, not four, and he is no more crazy than CIA.


Umm? WWI, WWII and a certain superpower which starts a new war every few years - all occured within last 100 years.


To do something with trade deficit and US debt falling dollar and a rising yuan will not suffice (floating rates model works perfectly only in ideal conditions, and in the case of dollar and yuan it is far from it). But you are right in that economy solution is possible, though I think most of people here will say "it is impossible" as well. Basicly USA needs to tariff everything from other states, hyperinflate dollar 3-5 times to erase internal and external debts, and reindustrialize the country.


Only up to some extent as we see now. Those countries which had which had large negative imbalances and weaker economies are falling now (Baltics, Ukraine for example). US is just much more fatter, so it will need more time to experience all the consequences.


Japan used the same excuse during WWII although Manchus were minority too back then.


As I said earlier, if China will be richer they will just save more. And they tend to consume what they produce themselves.

About Japan

A lot of answers were about Japan, so I would like to elaborate on this.

The problem of Japan is that they are going to system crash. They were repressing negative tendencies during 90s using cheap money but now it is obvious this came to the end. Money which were used by carry traders are going back to country, exports are fallin greatly and so on. Within next years Japan economy will crash, and millions will become jobless. When people are poor and hungry they tend to accept radical solutions.

So how they can reboot economy after it will happen? Military industry is one of options available. War can give people jobs, meaning of life and give government excuses for harsh measuries against riots and such. China is one of the possible target of Japanese agression (if their government will choose war option). Other possible targets are Russia and South Asia (including Australia).

And if talk about military might of China and Japan, there some things to be considered. Yes, China's military is probably in the best shape then ever. But still it is not militaristic nation while Japanese are. And to dominate in war country is not bound to have bigger population (consider Nazi Germany which were able to easily conquer most of Europe). Indeed Japanese will need to expand their military industry but they are laborious nation. Personally, I think that in hypothetical China-Japan conflict Japanese has very high chances (if they will not go for all China of course).
The idea of Japan invading China is just absurd.
Even if the Japanese re-arm themselves it will take at least a decade to match the military might of China.
 
poles are afraid of russia, russians are afraid of china, who are chinese afraid of?
Mongols.

I remember that before 2008 South Ossetia war there were plenty of observers who claimed something like this "because nobody need real war conflict" or something like this.
And there were plenty who saw such a thing coming from miles away. Everyone with their eyes open, for one.

Another one is that "Snorrius do not get economics/history/whatever". Saying opponents do not get something without explaining specifics is one of the known methods to wage forum wars, so I will discard this opinions in order to not provoke flaming and trolling by some unresponsible members. Two members get the honorary medals of "Ye-do-not-get-this":
There is no need to explain specifics when other people have already done so. Your knowledge of politics, history, economics and international relations was shown to be horrendously deficient by numerous other posters, rendering any comments by Winner and I in those areas redundant. It would be like telling people not to piss into the wind twice in a row; unnecessary.

Winner do not know how economy works but somehow knows my views are "16th century" (though Opium wars happened in 19th century).

Lord Baal allowed himself a daring remark here though he did not really show us his own understanding of economics, international relations or history.

Of course, one thing should be clear. Unlike economic predictions which are becoming true like incoming trains on a railroad, any political and military are much more uncertain, and like many noted here have lots of "if".
Actually, political and military predictions are very easy to make. You simply need accurate information. Those with said information have pointed out an incredibly large amount of flaws in your argument. Your argument is rather similar to Swiss cheese, except said cheese tends to have more cheese than hole, whereas your argument is quite reversed.

Also, you claim political and military matters are uncertain, yet attempt to predict future events by recalling a past event in an incredibly different ttime. In other words, you yourself are attempting to predict military and political occurences. Where you are going horribly wrong is by using incredibly outdated models. It's like attempting to to start a jet by removing the chocks and spinning a propellor; unfeasible, not least because the chocks and propellor aren't there.

The idea of Japan invading China is just absurd.
Even if the Japanese re-arm themselves it will take at least a decade to match the military might of China.
And that's assuming that China just stood by and let them. Which is sooooo likely.
 
---As I said earlier, if China will be richer they will just save more. And they tend to consume what they produce themselves.

---That tends to go against what has happened in the historical paths of all other developing --> developed nations.
 
Another one is that "Snorrius do not get economics/history/whatever". Saying opponents do not get something without explaining specifics is one of the known methods to wage forum wars, so I will discard this opinions in order to not provoke flaming and trolling by some unresponsible members. Two members get the honorary medals of "Ye-do-not-get-this":

You certainly don't get this. Remember, if the world revolts, how do you predict the outcome when the rule itself changed? If the world is going down the spiral, then it is also out of our bounds of prediction.



The problem is that Chinese are not nearly such consumers like Europeans or Americans. They have very high savings ratio, and most of thing they consume they do themselves. The reason of this can be their isolationist mindset. So if they will be richer they will just save more.

Chinese high saving rate is coupled with high investment rate. Such saving is capital that is used in production, consumption and financial speculations. Yes, China also has some Wall Street running.

Obviously, the present and past situations are not equal 1:1. But in a way, USA is in a much worse situation now. GB just needed rights for trade in China back then, but now USA is risking its hegemony and control over valuable assets into which China is trying to convert its humongous savings.

Saying US situation is worse than China is laughable. Like your delusion that Russia is doing better than US. Remind you once again, if you don't think current rules will apply, you lose the prediction since no rules are specified.

Six, not four, and he is no more crazy than CIA.

US has 911 truthers, that will keep us relieved for a while.

Umm? WWI, WWII and a certain superpower which starts a new war every few years - all occured within last 100 years.

So is there a total war?

To do something with trade deficit and US debt falling dollar and a rising yuan will not suffice (floating rates model works perfectly only in ideal conditions, and in the case of dollar and yuan it is far from it). But you are right in that economy solution is possible, though I think most of people here will say "it is impossible" as well. Basicly USA needs to tariff everything from other states, hyperinflate dollar 3-5 times to erase internal and external debts, and reindustrialize the country.

Certainly the data disagree with you. But what the heck, you make the rules, so if you say America will collapse, it will collapse. No data is needed.

Only up to some extent as we see now. Those countries which had which had large negative imbalances and weaker economies are falling now (Baltics, Ukraine for example). US is just much more fatter, so it will need more time to experience all the consequences.

Quantity has quality in its own merit. Remember that SU defeat Nazi Germany with no better equipments.


Japan used the same excuse during WWII although Manchus were minority too back then.

As long as they have Korea and Port Arthur, Manchuria is theirs.
A lot of answers were about Japan, so I would like to elaborate on this.

The problem of Japan is that they are going to system crash. They were repressing negative tendencies during 90s using cheap money but now it is obvious this came to the end. Money which were used by carry traders are going back to country, exports are fallin greatly and so on. Within next years Japan economy will crash, and millions will become jobless. When people are poor and hungry they tend to accept radical solutions.

So how they can reboot economy after it will happen? Military industry is one of options available. War can give people jobs, meaning of life and give government excuses for harsh measuries against riots and such. China is one of the possible target of Japanese agression (if their government will choose war option). Other possible targets are Russia and South Asia (including Australia).

And if talk about military might of China and Japan, there some things to be considered. Yes, China's military is probably in the best shape then ever. But still it is not militaristic nation while Japanese are. And to dominate in war country is not bound to have bigger population (consider Nazi Germany which were able to easily conquer most of Europe). Indeed Japanese will need to expand their military industry but they are laborious nation. Personally, I think that in hypothetical China-Japan conflict Japanese has very high chances (if they will not go for all China of course).

So you mean that "if we're going to collapse, nuke China and destroy them with us?"

Remember, life was much easier if you relieve yourself from delirium and have a nice cup of coffee--if the world will end tomorrow, why would I care if I'm doomed?
 
Obviously, the present and past situations are not equal 1:1. But in a way, USA is in a much worse situation now. GB just needed rights for trade in China back then, but now USA is risking its hegemony and control over valuable assets into which China is trying to convert its humongous savings.

Let me get this straight. The Chinese are "different" from anyone else in that they won't spend their money as they get wealthier despite data to the contrary, but just keep saving. However, they pose a dangerous threat to the U.S. because they will buy valuable assets. (generally called "spending money")

Britain was suffering because its metal backed currency could not withstand a continuous loss of specie into Chinese hands. When exactly is the U.S. going to start running out of T-bills?

Six, not four, and he is no more crazy than CIA.

So predicting the breakup of a poor nation with serious crime problems and is actually fighting real independence movements is just as crazy as predicting the utterly illogical breakup of the U.S. into territories with no historical or social basis?

Umm? WWI, WWII and a certain superpower which starts a new war every few years - all occured within last 100 years.

Yet the advances in economic theory that make your thesis laughable developed some time before that.
 
So predicting the breakup of a poor nation with serious crime problems and is actually fighting real independence movements is just as crazy as predicting the utterly illogical breakup of the U.S. into territories with no historical or social basis?

While Snorrius' predictions do sound like something Paradox Games - like, a breakup of Russia isn't more possible then a breakup of the US, with the exception of North Caucasus. But North Caucasus sucks anyway.
 
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