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Why Marines?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cheetah, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. capslock

    capslock Emperor

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    who told you that? lol
     
  2. say1988

    say1988 Deity

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    Sounds like something a person connected to the marines would say to make them sound braver than the cowardly Army.

    I strongly suspect both are instructed to make the most of cover whenever possible and how to properly charge a position if forced to for some reason.
     
  3. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    To be honest, I was going to say it sounds like someone who has no experience with either the army or the Marines.
     
  4. gugalpm

    gugalpm Veteran of psychic wars

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    I think the first Marines were created in France, by Richelieu, as troops that were part of the ships but could also fight on land.
     
  5. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    They're quite a bit older than that :)
     
  6. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    ROFLOL! the Army would just call in the Tanks or Artillery (or if it was really fortified, the Air Force) then invade
     
  7. gugalpm

    gugalpm Veteran of psychic wars

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    I mean the modern use. Roman ships couldn't exactly bombard so having fighting troops onboard was a must.
     
  8. say1988

    say1988 Deity

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    They may not have been officially designated, but naval infantry has existed since ships first fought. Boarding actions, secuirity, and coastal raids all took men.

    And Spanish and Portuguese Marine units both predate France's from 1537 and 1610, respectfully.
     
  9. otago

    otago Deity

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    The US Marines do have an advantage in the PR battle with Marines being stationed at US embassies.
    US Marines look damn good in their dress uniforms when they are selling poppies for our returned servicemen in Anzac week.
     
  10. Chazumi

    Chazumi Trained& Motivated Killer

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    Just a side note, I was shot at more by marines in Ramadi Iraq 2007 than actual insurgents. They also had vastly more WIA/KIAs, especially when you consider their numbers vs ours.

    And the marines receive less than half the funding the Army does

    (you also don't pick your job in the marines, so I would assume that a lot of people are doing jobs that wasn't their first pick).
     
  11. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

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    Parachute regiment. And the good old maroon machine does the same work as just about any other infantry regiment nowadays, just better.

    T'was the case until now; in the UK we have 3 Commando Brigade with a whole battalion of infantry (1 RIFLES) attached from the army. Originally, that was however true.


    This is most of the story pretty decently summed up. Essentially, infantry in the bad old days fought in the massive blocks that you see in video games, on land, very dependant on good drill and good ground with open space. On a ship or making an amphibious attack you don't have those luxuries; troops were needed who could act as much more independant, elite soldiers. They were trained as line infantry as well, and until very recently the Royal Marines had a place in the army order of precedence.

    That's because the USA believes that if you tie the marines to the navy, they won't be able to carry out their role as an infantry unit as effectively because their senior officers will be sea officers, and if you tie them to the army they won't be able to manage the close co-operation with the navy that they need. The UK approach is to make them nominally part of the navy, but to make them essentally a seperate service with their own commander, own military academy and ships of the fleet set aside for them. In some countries, special forces are a seperate service (including the UK's SRR) for the same reason, but the logic has always been that there are engineers in each service so that they can work well with anyone, because any engineer unit will be trained as the people with whom they are working. In Mexico, the parachute units are part of the air force, so the model isn't universal.

    Ball locks. That's a good way to get yourself shot to peices.

    That's true, relatively speaking (I was trained in basic demolitions) but if you can get behind the hard metal bit your enemy is doing something hideously wrong. The only time I ever disarmed one in anger was when we left a position that was providing a scary prescence (or was that security?) to a back-street in Aden, and somebody had got hold of one and put it in our base.

    Agreed. Problem is nowadays they've got no men, so in the absence of paras wanting to join the SAS they look for help from - the paras!

    Yes; but it's pretty much seperate (entrants from all services are welcome, and it operates far more closely with the SAS' boat troops than Royal Marines)

    Tell that to General Richards! The army nowadays seems hell-bent on getting rid of the parachute regiment because they never seem to parachute.
     
  12. otago

    otago Deity

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  13. JohnRM

    JohnRM Don't make me destroy you

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    The SAS has what, 1500 members? Not always the right call to make.
     
  14. otago

    otago Deity

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    It is strange that so many believe the SAS are the best to have around when one needs infantry.
    Example, knocking a bunker out, I would expect well trained infantry to be a damn sight better at it than the SAS because that is what they practice day after day.
    Why waste the SAS on normal infantry work.
     
  15. Ecofarm

    Ecofarm Deity

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    The US marines are generally ok with being portrayed as a little unstable or unconventional by military expectations. For example, Heartbreak Ridge (the invasion of Grenada) was actually Army Rangers and a company of 82nd Airborne. Due to various reasons (perhaps including a double-tap on an injured opponent), the Army withdrew consent for the movie but the Marines said "fine, make it us".

    That's why the main character transfers into the Marines from the 82nd (they used the real person's name) to start the movie. Also, the call made from a repaired civilan land-line with a credit card for mission-critical air support went to Ft. Bragg, NC - home of the 82nd, IRL.

    For another example, the sniper's blood-lust driven break-down in JarHeads would not have been approved by the Army.


    Side note:
    I would say that a regular INFANTRY US Marine is roughly equivalent to the 10th Mountain Division, 101st Air Assault Division or perhaps the 82nd Airborne Division. It most certainly is not equivelant to a US Ranger. US Marine Expeditionary forces might be equivalent to Rangers, that's why in the movie they were a Marine Recon Unit, to use regular marine infantry to portay rangers and paras would be wrong. While general Marine infantry are a shock-force, like the 82nd, they do not come from the sky or with the same bang and instant-response-time as paras and rangers. We find Rangers, SF and sometimes 82nd working with Delta Force missions... rarely does one find Marines (even Recon) in such a unit/mission.

    As far as "being more selective", it is easier, technically, to get into the marines than any other service. Surviving it is another matter.
     
  16. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

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    How the feck did you hear about that? Yes, it's true (unfortunatly) and still the butt of just about every marine joke in the book (and a few of mine, considering they're the 'other paras' to me). You're not on ARRSE are you?

    You are actually right. The SAS are not fans of conventional fighting because, simply put, they might get killed and there aren't that many of them to go around. In general, if an infantry battalion with an armoured troop can't do it, it's probably not worth doing.

    SAS soldiers are infantry; and they are the best. You can only join if you're one of the best of the infantry anyway, and then you get far more training than you would ever get in the regular army. SAS personnel who go back to their units are always very valuable. There was quite a famous incident during the war in the Falklands when an SAS section (in fact, it was one of John Hamilton's) radioed to say that they had encountered an Argentine company on the mountain that they were reccing, so the British sent in the marines who saw men coming down from the hill - the SAS section, who had destroyed the enemy almost completely.
     
  17. Ecofarm

    Ecofarm Deity

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    Our marines are not Airborne, flyingpig.

    A few are, who do work with units beyond Recon Marine Units. And a few are, who got the school as a reward. But not a single Marine Unit including Recons (except perhaps some very covert stuff, I'm guessing) are jump qualified.


    Bottom line: If you ain't Airborne (infantry, of course), you ain't crap... That's how the saying goes.
     
  18. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

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    I mean 3 PARA (as in mortar platoon). I'm from 2 PARA, and there are only those two battalions who work as regular infantry.
     
  19. Ecofarm

    Ecofarm Deity

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    Our paras are 4 companies to a battalion, 3 bats/regiments, 1 div.

    A, B and C companies are regular squadies (as you say), with 1 mortar platoon. Each of their other (4 total) platoons have a heavy-weapon squad with a crew-served weapon (not a mortar). In other words, each company has 1 mortar platoon (of their 4 platoons), and 1 heavy squad per other platoon. In our MOS (job-label) system, an 11B is an infantry grunt. Mortars are 11C and every company has a couple crews (their mortar platoon).

    D company is special weapons company (11H). We have humvees that we drop before our dudes. We mount TOW anti-tank missile systems, .50 cals or auto-grenade launchers in our Humvee turret after we cut it free from the chutes and platform.

    I was 11H. I signed up for 11X (their choice). In infantry basic training (seperate from all other MOS and only at one Fort) they split the higher-intel-scoring people into that group. Lazy people get 11C and the rest get 11B.

    Side bit: Our special forces/green berets are 13s. 13b weapons, 13c commo, 13d medic (has registered nurse and surgical training, 1.5 years) and 13e demolitions. They all, of course, are mortar trained. And they get an Lt., making a 5 man "fire-team".


    ps. The 101st "Airborne" Division has not been Airborne since Vietnam. They only repel from helis (no chutes, no planes) and should be labelled "Air Assault", but tradition still has the tab sticking.
     
  20. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

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    Same as us, except we have 5 companies in a battalion (of which 3 are rifle companies), 3 regular and 1 territorial battalions to 1 regiment, which along with about another regiment in support units makes up one brigade (which any other country would probably call a corps). The parachute regiment has four battalions - 1 PARA (which help special forces out), 2 PARA (my battalion), 3 PARA (the ones with the famous mortar platoon) and 4 PARA (there reserves). In 2 PARA, you can't feel superior to 1 PARA and 4 PARA didn't exist back in the day, so when we couldn't mock the Royal Marines we always mocked 3 PARA.
     

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