WSJ: The US Needs to Fire More Teachers

[Dachs]

The culture down there simply doesn't care about education. Worse, it's a hotspot of anti-intellectualism.

What?

 

[downtown]

Very poor administration? (P.S. doesn't mean union would help or hurt)

That seems to be a huge problem is that there are very bad people on the administration side of schools. It seems to be a mix of that + unions at Milwaukee Pub School where we spend an outrageous amount of money and get less results. So I would say there is some waste going on there at the upper levels.

Cultural? It could be the parents are not supporting the teachers in their efforts. The culture could be unsupportive to good education. Take a look at some poor places in London. They have the same problem where there is a culture that abhors education. Seems to be an issue in just about every "race" in certain places.

Administrational issues and culture are certainly part of it, but I don't think there is any evidence that administrations are worse in the north or south. Remember, even in "union" areas, nobody above teachers are unionized. The principals, HR back end staff, curriculum writers...they aren't union.

As a teacher, do you get any sort of evaluation from your superiors on a yearly (or semi-annual) basis? Something where a principle ranks the teachers in his school based on certain criteria and includes a subjective narrative based on his observations/interactions with you?

You do, although the specifics of that evaluation depend on your school. It can include test scores, professional development goals, parent and coworker feedback, quality of lesson plans, and many other factors.

Nowhere else will you find more capable Americans.

Unless you mean things like "capable at doing math", or "capable of sustaining non-dangerous cities" or "capable of having any industry not based on resource extraction, gambling, tits or booze"...then no, Louisiana doesn't have the most capable.

Your senator used hookers. Your main urban center's economy is built on boobs. Your school system is completely uncompetitive, despite being the conservative wet dream. You realize this, right?

Poor states education budgets be poor? I suppose an arguement could be made if those states actually had unions they'd be even worse off.

Oh, you almost got it Mobboss! So close.

THE SINGLE VARIABLE THAT HAS THE BIGGEST IMPACT ON A SCHOOL'S STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT IN THEIR POVERTY LEVEL. Not their unionization. Not how educated their teachers are, not how long the school day is, not the size of their budgets, not whether they allow prayer or not, not what curriculum they use. IT IS THEIR POVERTY LEVEL.

Really, the second biggest variable is their poverty level too. If we look at things by a state level, most of our highest achieving states, (in terms of graduation rate and ACT score) are fairly unionized. They're also fairly wealthy.

I dont think that unionization, by itself, has a significant impact on student achievement. The only union-led policy that I think we can prove has significant impacts on student achievement would be tenure...and maaaaaaaybe last in-first out, although that is probably inconslusive.

Unions make an easy scapegoat for conservatives because teachers unions are a reliable democratic constituency. I won't deny that teachers unions have done stupid things. I was in a teachers union. I understand....but they ARE NOT THE reason our schools suck. Poverty is the reason our schools suck.

 

[Tee Kay]

downtown for President should not be a joke option.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

I'd vote for him.

You don't appear to embrace true American values found in Louisiana. Which is apparent, based on your avatar and lifestyle.

This just in, folks: Liking a TV show makes you un-American.

 

[warpus]

Yeah, like there's ever going to be a Mormon president. I'd vote for him if he was black.

 

[Ergo Sum]

Why are (unqualified) people allowed to comment on education? Seems like pretty complicated institutional problems and most people treat 'American education' monolithically amirite? This is not simple stuff.

Why are conservatives so convinced that the only way to make schools better is to fire teachers? For that matter, why do they dismiss the possibility that schools might be underfunded?

 

[cegman]

Why are conservatives so convinced that the only way to make schools better is to fire teachers? For that matter, why do they dismiss the possibility that schools might be underfunded?

Easy because if you take a look at the per capita spending on schools it is through the roof compared to other countries.

I think firing teachers is a great idea. Not as a matter of having less teachers just the ability to get rid of bad teachers.

Downtown I'm not sure if I can find it but I remember reading somewhere that an education major was on the bottom of majors in terms of difficulty. This fits with my experience in my college. Does this fit with your experience?

Also I was not arguing that the anyone but the teachers were unions I was saying where I live we have two issues. We have very poor administrations and we have difficult teachers unions who combine to prevent good teaching. I know a great social studies teacher who had a lesson plan of some kind of political debate struck down by the administration after he'd been doing it for years. It taught me a lot about trying to look at the other side. But the administration stupidly decided it was a bad idea. I also had a pot smoking (in school) garbage teacher who didn't teach me a thing who made it to tenure and is basically untouchable because the union is protecting her.

 

[downtown]

Downtown I'm not sure if I can find it but I remember reading somewhere that an education major was on the bottom of majors in terms of difficulty. This fits with my experience in my college. Does this fit with your experience?
.

That was discussed in the OP. It is true, an education major is not very difficult, and attracts less academic people. It is one of the reasons just firing teachers, in my opinion, is dumb....we wouldn't be able to replace them with anybody better.

 

[cegman]

That's can be true at times but that doesn't mean that there is never better out there that want the job. There definately are teachers that are worth firing that it wouldn't take much to improve on.

 

[Cutlass]

Sure. But from that you cannot generalize to say that most teachers need firing, or that unions are any particular part of the problem.

 

[Formaldehyde]

They are to those who want to deliberately keep the population under-educated so they will continue to vote Republican and be good evangelical Christians.

 

[timtofly]

If we completely go the poverty route, it seems that Americans need to be paid to learn? Are you saying that underfunded schools have no textbooks? What has happened to the American spirit where every child felt obligated to carry on the proud American spirit of learning and growing the nation? Are we so taken with entertainment (or globalism) that we now have to buy our way into this so called American experience? Or worse yet, rely on others to pay our way to happiness? Tis a sad fate indeed.

 

[Cutlass]

If we completely go the poverty route, it seems that Americans need to be paid to learn? Are you saying that underfunded schools have no textbooks? What has happened to the American spirit where every child felt obligated to carry on the proud American spirit of learning and growing the nation? Are we so taken with entertainment (or globalism) that we now have to buy our way into this so called American experience? Or worse yet, rely on others to pay our way to happiness? Tis a sad fate indeed.

 

[downtown]

They are to those who want to deliberately keep the population under-educated so they will continue to vote Republican and be good evangelical Christians.

The people that are being delibertly undereducated in our country are minorities and urban dwellers, not really GOP turf. The rural achievement gap is not nearly as significant.

That doesn't mean that the actions aren't deliberate...but voting GOP aint got nothing to do with it.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Of course it does. Just look at their attitudes towards unions, colleges, and even propagandizing the school books when they can. There was even a recent thread about how some Republicans are even trying to stop critical thinking being taught in the classrooms in Texas:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=466757

The position causing the most controversy, however, is the statement that they oppose the teaching of "higher order thinking skills" -- a curriculum which strives to encourage critical thinking -- arguing that it might challenge "student's fixed beliefs" and undermine "parental authority."

You even commented in that thread.

You certainly have some odd opinions regarding clearly partisan politics in this country.

 

[downtown]

GOP attitudes towards colleges (or even unions really), don't really have an impact on k12 education, at least not a direct one.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Again, just look at how many of them try to change the history books and even attempt to stop the teaching of critical thinking, as well as the attempts to sabotage public school education so the taxpayers will pay them to send their own children to religious indoctrination schools. You don't find too many left-wing book burners in this country.

Many of them even thought school children singing a song about their own president was an attempt to brainwash them.


Link to video.

I felt that it was reminiscent of 1930s Germany and the indoctrination of children to worship their leader.

Then there is the issue of reluctance to even contemplate modeling our schools after countries which have far more successful public education systems at far lower costs. Again, it is quite similar to the reluctance to improving the healthcare system by taking similar measures.

There are clearly many partisan issues that are involved in the educational system being in the condition it is today. Even blaming unions is an aspect of it.

 

[cav scout]

Question for DT:

You have previously mentioned that the level of professional education an aspiring teacher attains has little to no correlation with how successful they will be once they get to the classroom. So basically you have many folks who have committed years of their life and gobs of tuition to become teachers only to get to the classroom and then either suck horribly at the job or hate it. If this is the case I imagine a large percentage of these ineffective teachers would just hunker down, take the paycheck and ride it out until retirement. Is this a correct assessment?

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

It's perfectly clear what's going on here. The WSJ wants there to be more freedom to fire teachers. The clear and obvious reason for this is that principals and superintendents tend to be conservative, and so would have no qualms firing at their whim whatever teachers dared to reveal a shade of liberalism. It wouldn't be long before we had purely conservative schools everywhere teaching children that the gay kids should be bullied and that bringing a gun to school was a fundamental right.

And that's where it all falls apart for the country.

Spoiler :

Posting like MC is fun!

 

[downtown]

Question for DT:

You have previously mentioned that the level of professional education an aspiring teacher attains has little to no correlation with how successful they will be once they get to the classroom. So basically you have many folks who have committed years of their life and gobs of tuition to become teachers only to get to the classroom and then either suck horribly at the job or hate it. If this is the case I imagine a large percentage of these ineffective teachers would just hunker down, take the paycheck and ride it out until retirement. Is this a correct assessment?

That certainly can happen.

Teaching has a really high turnover at first. In higher poverty classrooms, I think its ~50% of all teachers leave the profession within 5 years. In lower poverty classrooms, it's still fairly high, (in the 20s, I'll google around later). Generally, it is thought that the very worst teachers self-select out during this period...generally, you know if you're a horrible teacher, and there will be pressures for you to find something else to do. The very best teachers also often leave during this time...either to go to graduate school, get into fancypants school leadership, or do a job where they can make a lot more money.

If you survive that 5 years, you typically stick around, and that will include a lot of pretty "meh" teachers. IF you've been in the classroom for 7 years, it's hard to find a non-education gig, and the retirement plan is a pretty big incentive to stick around.