Zen Sayings

[Gatsby]

I think that's part of it, at least for some Koans. I'm not a Zen practitioner myself (though I am a Buddhist) but I think its methods are intended to guide the student towards a direct experience of enlightened mind (satori).

Koans are not usually posed in isolation. Instead, the teacher will assign the koan as a meditation object that the student will contemplate for weeks or months. Periodically the teacher will examine the student to see if their understanding has sufficiently progressed. If not, they're sent back to the zendo. Koan practice seems to involve pulling the rug out from under the student again and again, so that they begin to see the limitations of not only binary thinking, but of all concepts. It produces satori by ruthlessly stripping away everything that is not satori.

Indeed, I think a Zen master would be somewhat amused by this whole thread, because getting to a rational understanding of a koan (or koans in general) is about as far from the point as one can possibly get.

Zen and Buddhism have the same fundamental goals and strategies, which is what you would expect given that Zen is a school of Buddhism. Ideally everyone would get a direct experience of satori every time they encountered a Zen saying (or wouldn't even need the Zen sayings to experience satori!). However different people are mired in various attachments to different degrees, so it would only be a small minority of people who would directly experience satori from encountering a koan. Still, even if a koan does not directly and immediately lead to satori, it can help bring a person closer to that stage where they do experience satori later on.

Because they are riddles with a complex conceptual structure, koans as meditative objects are qualitatively different from relatively simple meditation objects such as the breath. By virtue of their conceptual and intellectual nature, koans can help guide a mind toward satori by utilizing the mind's inclination to ponder rather than going directly against it (as meditating on the breath often does). In this process the mind may think up all sorts of contemplations about the koan, but sooner or later the mind either lets go of trying to think up a satisfactory answer or it thinks up an answer which paradoxically highlights the ultimate futility of attachment to conceptual thinking. Imo those who directly and immediately experience satori when they encounter a koan just go through this process extremely rapidly (everything just "clicks" into place) because the inclination and previous conditioning of their minds makes them ripe for satori.

 

[Monsterzuma]

i think this thread is kind of self-defeating because it overthinks the philosophy of not overthinking things.

most of the riddles are just supposed to tickle your mind a bit. when you realize you don't understand it, you understand it.

 

[Gary Childress]

i think this thread is kind of self-defeating because it overthinks the philosophy of not overthinking things.

most of the riddles are just supposed to tickle your mind a bit. when you realize you don't understand it, you understand it.

The purpose of this thread is to "tickle the mind" as well. As far as not "overthinking things", what constitutes "overthinking" a zen riddle? Aren't the pupils of the Zen master supposed to think deeply about the riddles? The more you think about them the more you see the nuances and features of them. If you don't think about them very much then their whole purpose is lost. In the final analysis this thread is just a fun exercise regardless of whether or not it leads to Satori. Also it gives an opportunity to discuss our own opinions about Zen buddhism.

 

[Gary Childress]

Speaking of opinions of Zen buddhism:

I believe it is said that the Buddha sat under a tree and meditated for many days before he achieved "nirvana" or whatever it is he achieved. Presumably he did not get any sleep during that period I would think. I have heard that staying awake for days on end can case a person to dream while awake, or at least that has been my experience when I stay awake for a few days on end. Basically you start to think delusionally and hallucinate.

Now my personal experiences have always ended up turning into dellusions of paranoia and fear. But what is to say that a person couldn't begin to "day dream" (as it were) about blissful things? I have had blissful dreams that I recall while asleep. I just haven't had them during a "manic" episode. What if the state of being that the Buddha achieved is what we westerners call a "manic episode"? Only where my manic episodes for whatever reason have involed fear, perhaps a person who is "pure of soul", or whatever one wants to call it, can have a "manic episode" in which they experience bliss.

 

[dusters]

Sorry for offtopic, but have you actully watched BBC documentary about science of meditation?

As for koans - they are truly pieces of art. To make up a good koan, it is harder than to draw and sing combined, i think.

And they are fun too. You can take a koan, or a haiku and understand it in zillion different ways.

 

[duckstab]

I believe it is said that the Buddha sat under a tree and meditated for many days before he achieved "nirvana" or whatever it is he achieved. Presumably he did not get any sleep during that period I would think. I have heard that staying awake for days on end can case a person to dream while awake, or at least that has been my experience when I stay awake for a few days on end. Basically you start to think delusionally and hallucinate.

Now my personal experiences have always ended up turning into dellusions of paranoia and fear. But what is to say that a person couldn't begin to "day dream" (as it were) about blissful things? I have had blissful dreams that I recall while asleep. I just haven't had them during a "manic" episode. What if the state of being that the Buddha achieved is what we westerners call a "manic episode"? Only where my manic episodes for whatever reason have involed fear, perhaps a person who is "pure of soul", or whatever one wants to call it, can have a "manic episode" in which they experience bliss.

Well, there's a difference between experiencing an altered state of consciousness and developing a permanent capacity or insight. There are plenty of ways of inducing the former, some of which are healthier than others. But whether induced by meditation, yoga, sex, drugs, rock 'n roll, or whatever, they don't last. Nor, do I think, is the pleasant or unpleasant quality of the experience particularly important.

Even in Zen, the practitioner who experiences a satori is likely to be told by their teacher, "congratulations, you've had your first satori, now get your butt back on the meditation cushion."

The Buddha himself tried a whole array of ascetic practices, including starving himself. One of his key insights was that such extreme practices were a dead end, so he decided to shift gears into something less punishing. That's why the Buddhist path is sometimes referred to as "the Middle Way".

An illustration of what I'm talking about is a story I heard about a modern Zen teacher. (I'm pretty sure it was Katagiri Roshi, who taught in the U.S. in the 70s and 80s.) The story goes that some of his students convinced him to try LSD. He took a dose and was observed to go about his usual daily routine without any noticeable difference in behavior. He was surely having some extraordinary experiences, but the point is that, because he'd trained his mind over many years, he wasn't fazed by whatever he was seeing.

I've never attempted to sustain a meditation session for longer than about an hour. My own experience is that there is sometimes a feeling of calm bliss and openness, but I've never had any visions or the like. However, what I have noticed is an increased sensitivity to the movements of my own mind. If anger arises, for example, I notice it more quickly. I'm less likely to get sucked into it and do something stupid than I was at one time. That, I believe, is the real purpose of long practice. Altered states are more or less a sidebar.

 

[Gary Childress]

Well, there's a difference between experiencing an altered state of consciousness and developing a permanent capacity or insight. There are plenty of ways of inducing the former, some of which are healthier than others. But whether induced by meditation, yoga, sex, drugs, rock 'n roll, or whatever, they don't last. Nor, do I think, is the pleasant or unpleasant quality of the experience particularly important.

Even in Zen, the practitioner who experiences a satori is likely to be told by their teacher, "congratulations, you've had your first satori, now get your butt back on the meditation cushion."

The Buddha himself tried a whole array of ascetic practices, including starving himself. One of his key insights was that such extreme practices were a dead end, so he decided to shift gears into something less punishing. That's why the Buddhist path is sometimes referred to as "the Middle Way".

An illustration of what I'm talking about is a story I heard about a modern Zen teacher. (I'm pretty sure it was Katagiri Roshi, who taught in the U.S. in the 70s and 80s.) The story goes that some of his students convinced him to try LSD. He took a dose and was observed to go about his usual daily routine without any noticeable difference in behavior. He was surely having some extraordinary experiences, but the point is that, because he'd trained his mind over many years, he wasn't fazed by whatever he was seeing.

I've never attempted to sustain a meditation session for longer than about an hour. My own experience is that there is sometimes a feeling of calm bliss and openness, but I've never had any visions or the like. However, what I have noticed is an increased sensitivity to the movements of my own mind. If anger arises, for example, I notice it more quickly. I'm less likely to get sucked into it and do something stupid than I was at one time. That, I believe, is the real purpose of long practice. Altered states are more or less a sidebar.

I wonder, has any scientist ever hooked electrodes to the brain of someone experiencing Satori to find out what brain centers are activated or stimulated by it? And if so, does this brain state resemble any other state which people have normally? What brain centers are stimulated by it?

Is Satori anything like mystic experience like that of what other religions report? For instance in Christian mystics people report experiencing a "one-ness" with God or something along those lines. I wonder if anyone has yet to ever hook electrodes to a mystic during a mystic experience? I would think that such an achievement would be to humanity like landing on the moon or something. sort of seeing a picture of what the state of the brian in mystic experience looks like.

And if scientists were to map the experience, I wonder if it could be artificially created in a brain under the right circumstance by inducing chemicals or something like that.

 

[duckstab]

I wonder, has any scientist ever hooked electrodes to the brain of someone experiencing Satori to find out what brain centers are activated or stimulated by it? And if so, does this brain state resemble any other state which people have normally? What brain centers are stimulated by it?

I don't know specifically of any studies that show what brain centers are activated during a satori experience. That might be hard to accomplish because I'm not sure it's the sort of thing even advanced practitioners can replicate at will under controlled conditions.

However, there have been a number of studies that show measurable physical differences in the brains of long-term meditators. Here's a few links:

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-05-long-term-meditation-brain.html
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-07/uoc--imt071311.php

And the Dalai Lama himself has been a big supporter of such reasarch:

http://www.viewmagazine.org/articles/science/102-neuroscience-and-meditation.html

Is Satori anything like mystic experience like that of what other religions report? For instance in Christian mystics people report experiencing a "one-ness" with God or something along those lines. I wonder if anyone has yet to ever hook electrodes to a mystic during a mystic experience? I would think that such an achievement would be to humanity like landing on the moon or something. sort of seeing a picture of what the state of the brian in mystic experience looks like.

I think it's probably a very similar experience, just perceived differently because of the spiritual vocabulary of the practitioner.

And if scientists were to map the experience, I wonder if it could be artificially created in a brain under the right circumstance by inducing chemicals or something like that.

I do recall hearing about something like this a few years back, where researchers were able to induce a kind of blissful religious experience by electrically stimulating certain regions of the brain. But again, however these experiences are produced, and whatever role they may play in an individual's spiritual path, I don't think they're the ultimate goal of practice.