2020 Election Thread!!!!!!!!!

[onejayhawk]

No. I would straight up prefer Obama for a third term than elect Clinton or Trump. I am not the only one to feel this one.

True. Obama was self defeating, which made him somewhat harmless. Trump we see and Clinton would be far worse.

J

 

[Zkribbler]

Because none of Reagan's relatives are running for President. Not only was Hillary's husband doing this but so was her, herself.

Got it. Bribery = campaign contribution to democrat.

 

[caketastydelish]

No. I'm referring to 'speaking fees'.

 

[metalhead]

Is that worse than having your husband's Senate office pressure a bank into giving a dubious loan to the college you are president of? Asking for a friend.

 

[caketastydelish]

What context? Who? How much money are we talking about?

 

[onejayhawk]

Got it. Bribery = campaign contribution to democrat.

It's ironic you are trying to be ironic.

Is that worse than having your husband's Senate office pressure a bank into giving a dubious loan to the college you are president of? Asking for a friend.

Probably not. The usual difference is in scale not in kind. This is a reason I not a member of either party.

J

 

[metalhead]

What context? Who? How much money are we talking about?

In the context of Jane Sanders lying on loan applications and to the board of trustees of her college to secure financing to buy land and move the college. The loans were for around $7 million. The transaction is being investigated by the FBI and the Sanders' have retained lawyers The WaPo story doesn't mention it, but other stories have said that Bernie's Senate office is part of the investigation and may have pressured lenders to agree to lend the money. That part of the story is just hearsay, but it still helps immensely that it was a Senator's wife going and looking for these loans. Surely you receive far less pushback than some average schmoe off the street.

 

[danjuno]

I didn't realize we were cherrypicking definitions now.

That's not cherrypicking, you just don't want to admit that you misused the aforementioned terms, becuase you believe anybody who is significantly to the left of your views must be a socialist. Google communism and socialism and you will get the same definitions from thousands of dictionary/encyclopedia sites.

I cant recalling calling Sanders a soci- communist though.

That comm- Democratic socialist presidential candidate Bernie Sanders.

You should consult your doctor about early onset Alzheimers.

In the context of Jane Sanders lying on loan applications and to the board of trustees of her college to secure financing to buy land and move the college. The loans were for around $7 million. The transaction is being investigated by the FBI and the Sanders' have retained lawyers The WaPo story doesn't mention it, but other stories have said that Bernie's Senate office is part of the investigation and may have pressured lenders to agree to lend the money. That part of the story is just hearsay, but it still helps immensely that it was a Senator's wife going and looking for these loans. Surely you receive far less pushback than some average schmoe off the street.

The only person seriously alleging that they were engaged in bank fraud is Brady Toensing, Trump's local hatchet man in Vermont. I expected better of you then to listen to the likes of him.

 

[Enginseer]

That's not cherrypicking, you just don't want to admit that you misused the aforementioned terms, becuase you believe anybody who is significantly to the left of your views must be a socialist. Google communism and socialism and you will get the same definitions from thousands of dictionary/encyclopedia sites.

I'll google from one of the "thousands" that has so the same definition from top google results.
I don't get any of the same exact definition at all. In fact it's just up to interpretations, who knew!

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/communism
"a theory advocating elimination of private property"

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/communism.html
Economic and social system in which all (or nearly all) property and resources are collectively owned by a classless society and not by individual citizens."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/communism.asp
"A political and economic ideology based on communal ownership and the absence of class."

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/communism
"an economic system based on public ownership of property and control of the methods of production, and in which no person profits from the work of others"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism[/quote]
"any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/socialism.html
"An economic system in which goods and services are provided through a central system of cooperative and/or government ownership rather than through competition and a free market system."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/socialism.asp
"Socialism is a populist economic and political system based on the public ownership (also known as collective or common ownership) of the means of production."

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/socialism
"any economic or political system based on government ownership and control of important businesses and methods of production."

Wow, I'll admit that communism and socialism are just the respectively further radicalization and radicalization of public ownership.

You should consult your doctor about early onset Alzheimers.

You should consult your farmer about early onset of strawman syndrome. You can't just assume what I am exactly saying from those quotes. You should never assume because I could have called Bernie a commercialist and a social warning on the hardworking elites. You have a nice year.

 

[innonimatu]

No. I would straight up prefer Obama for a third term than elect Clinton or Trump. I am not the only one to feel this one.

He was far smarter than either of those. And I think that secretly he was happy with Hillary's defeat, as it leaves the way open for him to play a leading role in politics again. But being good by comparison with those two is not really much of an endorsement, is it? He promised a lot with "change", and delivered nothing.

 

[caketastydelish]

After Obama's second term we were in much better shape than the mess GWB left us in. I don't think "delievered nothing" is fair. He obviously failed some things and there were some exaggerations and hype among the campaign trail. Still, tangible progress was made with his administration. Which is pretty unbelivable considering the Republicans were trying to kill him at all costs. And Obama was far from perfect, he made plenty of mistakes. But I still like him more than Hillary or Trump.

In order of preference (most to least)

1) Obama
2) Clinton
2) Trump

But I still say Clinton was a mistake that the democrats hopefully learn from in 2020. Hindsight is 2020, as they say.

 

[Ajidica]

Wow, I'll admit that communism and socialism are just the respectively further radicalization and radicalization of public ownership.

How about we see how well the "definitions" apply to the real world.
Was there any period of time between 1945 and 1980 you would consider the United Kingdom to be "socialist"?
Charles de Gaulle implemented policies involving public ownership of key sectors of the economy and government intervention to direct economic development. Was Charles de Gaulle a socialist?

 

[Dr Roach]

Hmmm...... Now, this is not the textbook definition by any means, but how about we just use socialist to mean two things, since no one can seem to agree on what it means in the first place:
Socialist:
1. A person who particularly believes in or pushes government regulation and control, of the economy specifically
AND/OR
2. A person who particularly promotes social programs (i.e. welfare state sort of stuff)

Sure, no textbook definition, but it definitely covers basically everything which people often call socialist. Most communists governments had similar policies at least in theory, the Nazis have a twisted-screwed-up version of this ideology (Their name is the "National Socialist Worker's Party", after all), the welfare states of Scandinavia, and the Democrats (especially Bernie Sanders). Not saying they are all the same, just have a somewhat similar feature of their beliefs. Socialism is often less a state or idea of government by itself and more a feature of larger ideologies.

Also, welfare state here is not the derogatory Republican term it might be, but the idea that the state should do everything it can to guarantee the well-being of it's people.

 

[Ajidica]

That leads to some severe oddities, such as Salazar's Estado Novo being "socialist", which makes absolutely no sense.

Trying to set up definitions of ideologies and trying to apply that to the real world isn't going to be very successful. Far better to look at groups on a holistic, case by case basis. Otherwise, Maggie Thatcher becomes a far-left socialist by the standards of today's Republican Party.

 

[Sommerswerd]

But I still say Clinton was a mistake that the democrats hopefully learn from in 2020. Hindsight is 2020, as they say.

Nice... I was gonna claim "HINDSIGHT 2020" as a campaign slogan and start selling tee shirts to fund my retirement... but apparently someone beat me to it

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

 

[FriendlyFire]

True. Obama was self defeating, which made him somewhat harmless. Trump we see and Clinton would be far worse. J

Dont count your chickens just yet
In ending the Clintons and the Bushs you might just have saddled yourselves with the Trumps

 

[Lexicus]

The Bernie or Bust movement warned the DNC of their intentions LONG before the primaries were over, and they flat out got ignored.

The Bernie or Bust "movement" was almost entirely inconsequential in the general election. The people who went Bernie-Trump weren't showing up for Clinton no matter what (and I'm not sure what the overlap was between them and the Bernie-or-Busters). The trumped-up nonsense about the DNC "rigging" the election was just their excuse.

The Democrats can either learn from their mistake in the 2020 election or (rightfully) get pwned time and time again.

I agree with you here.

 

[onejayhawk]

The Bernie or Bust "movement" was almost entirely inconsequential in the general election. The people who went Bernie-Trump weren't showing up for Clinton no matter what (and I'm not sure what the overlap was between them and the Bernie-or-Busters). The trumped-up nonsense about the DNC "rigging" the election was just their excuse.

It wasn't nonsense. it just didn't happen the way people thought it did. Most of the dirty work was done at the 2012 convention when they set the rules.

J

 

[caketastydelish]

The Bernie or Bust "movement" was almost entirely inconsequential in the general election. The people who went Bernie-Trump weren't showing up for Clinton no matter what (and I'm not sure what the overlap was between them and the Bernie-or-Busters). The trumped-up nonsense about the DNC "rigging" the election was just their excuse.

Nah. There were states that Hillary barely lost (like Pennsylvania). Hillary obviously felt the Bern on election night. I can't think of any Democratic primary to general election in my lifetime with any equivalent to bernie or bust. Hell, even the Republican side probably hasn't had anything like it. Did (Bill) Clinton have anything like it? No. Did Gore or Kerry? Closest gore had was people voting for Ralph Nader. But Ralph Nader was never a democrat to begin with, and there will always be a fringe minority voting for third parties in every election. And there are also fringe minorities from the conservative side as well (Libertarian, Constitution party, etc).

John Kerry and Obama didn't have an equivalent either. So yes, the Bernie or Bust did make a difference. Whether you think the movement was justified or not is irrelevant. Many of the Bernie or Bust people did not necessarily vote for Trump either. Some of them went green party, some of them did a write in for Bernie Sanders (or in my case, Bill Gates), and some of them simply didn't vote at all.

The democratic 2020 candidate does not have to be 'progressive' even, but someone without the heavily established baggage that Hillary has. Many people have hated Hillary for decades, and there are also people who fear the country is becoming an oligarchy where only a few political, well-connected families have a chance to become president.

 

[Dr Roach]

That leads to some severe oddities, such as Salazar's Estado Novo being "socialist", which makes absolutely no sense.

Trying to set up definitions of ideologies and trying to apply that to the real world isn't going to be very successful. Far better to look at groups on a holistic, case by case basis. Otherwise, Maggie Thatcher becomes a far-left socialist by the standards of today's Republican Party.

Certainly that's true, but the definition was simply for purposes of discussion. Are there any other common or universal themes in socialist governments or politicians?


Also, in an election so close, lots of things made a difference. Fairly low minority turnout, abnormally high rural white turnout, small third party voters, even various inconvenient circumstances which inadvertently denied some individuals the chance to vote all were significant contributors to the election results. I would personally hold off any speculation about the 2020 election until the next senatorial election- I have a feeling that'll really tell where the wind blows