2020 US Election (Part One)

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If you'll permit an outsider's perspective, the question is whether American society will accept and endorse something more than a moderate as far as the Left is concerned. That is, Bernie. Considering many Americans see anything remotely left-ish as the resurrection of the Soviet Union on US soil.

You may need to take it more gradually, and in that sense Warren seems more appropriate for this stage. It's unlikely someone will be able to just show up and "break down the system" right away without massive friction/stonewalling. Least of all in the extent of a single term (second would not be guaranteed).

Couple things.

1) Fiscally the US is much further left than traditional news media and conventional thinking give us credit for. Free College, Medicare For All, and the Green New Deal are all, broadly popular, even among Conservatives. The truth is that it's in the social stuff where the left generally loses the plot in building a coalition outside of the socially liberal urban populations in the US.
2) Donald Trump won in 2016. He did so, not by running to the center, but by embracing a combination of extreme far-right social positions (anti-gay/trans, anti-immigrant, anti-minority), and radical economic populism (not just the wall, but he was also running on universal healthcare, easing students' financial burdens, and bringing jobs back through state enforcement if necessary). The lesson to be learned from 2016 is that the center of this country isn't technocratic incremental change. That's the urban, elite left. The center is hurting, and has been hurting for a long time, and are drawn to populist leaders that speak to radical change that actually helps them, rather than incremental change which has long promised to help them but ends up actually doing very little.
3) Donald Trump also over the past 2 years has demonstrated that, while gridlock certainly does curtail a lot of a populist's agenda. The expansion of executive power over the last 50 years has given the President a lot of leeway to do as he pleases. And as long as the President has a vocal base and the will to use the bully pulpit to cow members of congress away from calling the President's bluff and triggering a constitutional crisis, the power of the much-touted "checks and balances" is actually quite illusory.
4) We've tried "incremental change". We've been trying it for 30 years. It took us 15 years to get Romneycare, which even in the mid-90s was a bone to be thrown to Right-leaning members of congress to build a bipartisan coalition. It didn't work. The fact of the matter is that "bipartisanship" is an illusion. It doesn't work and it's never worked. The great changes that have happened in this country - abolition, suffrage, workplace rights, the New Deal, and the Civil Rights Act - all came on the backs, not of amicable politicians bringing forth progress in the spirit of bipartisanship, but from large, organized masses from below threatening to burn those same politicians' houses down if they didn't accede to the peoples' demands. You can't legislate progress. Best case scenario you get something like Obamacare: a kneecapped version of an already extremely milquetoast piece of legislation set up to fail and be repealed ab initio. And even that a) wasn't even remotely bipartisan, and b) came on the back of a massive grassroots movement and a generationally-significant wave of Democratic victories.

So I say again: if you actually want genuine structural change, then you can't do what Warren's doing - promising to "have a plan for that," and asking everyone to place their trust in her to sort all of this out. Rather, you have to do what Bernie's doing: build up a large organized movement all shouting one message: give us these things or we'll burn your house down.
 
If you'll permit an outsider's perspective, the question is whether American society will accept and endorse something more than a moderate as far as the Left is concerned. That is, Bernie. Considering many Americans see anything remotely left-ish as the resurrection of the Soviet Union on US soil.
Well, Trump is a Russian asset guilty of multiple impeachable offenses. The people who won’t vote for Sanders because he’s a socialist are mostly the same people who won’t vote for Warren because she’s a woman or because Fox News told them to vote for a Republican no matter what. Bernie had a better chance at winning the swing states which voted for Trump than Hillary did but the DNC were biased against him. Bernie as president is our best hope for undoing 1 term of The Donald as president. If The D’ump is reelected, the USA will have proven it not a mere fluke and as such we will permanently lose all the respect of the civilized world.
 
Leave it to establishment democrats to refuse to impeach Trump for his many egregious actions, but then rush to do so in order to protect one of their own from being investigated for the corruption of which he has bragged publicly.
 
Leave it to establishment democrats to refuse to impeach Trump for his many egregious actions, but then rush to do so in order to protect one of their own from being investigated for the corruption of which he has bragged publicly.
What "corruption" are you referring to? That Ukrainian anti-corruption agencies and European anti-corruption agencies were calling for the Ukrainian lawyer in question to be fired because he was taking bribes and telling people under corruption indictments how to fight them?
Or are you referring to Hunter Biden getting a job because of who is daddy is? If corruption means 'getting a job because of who your parents are', the entire US elite should be in prison for corruption on that alone.
The Intercept, hardly an outlet friendly to Biden, did an investigation of the allegations and determined it was basically fake news.
https://theintercept.com/2019/05/10...ndal-ukraine-absolute-nonsense-reformer-says/
 
Leave it to establishment democrats to refuse to impeach Trump for his many egregious actions, but then rush to do so in order to protect one of their own from being investigated for the corruption of which he has bragged publicly.

It is corrupt to withhold military aid for your own personal gain. It is not corruption to withhold military aid as part of US policy to get rid of a prosecutor who is failing to prosecute corruption cases.
 
If you'll permit an outsider's perspective,
Which they habitually do, my fellow Buenosairopolite.
Lord Shadow said:
the question is whether American society will accept and endorse something more than a moderate as far as the Left is concerned. That is, Bernie. Considering many Americans see anything remotely left-ish as the resurrection of the Soviet Union on US soil.

You may need to take it more gradually, and in that sense Warren seems more appropriate for this stage. It's unlikely someone will be able to just show up and "break down the system" right away without massive friction/stonewalling. Least of all in the extent of a single term (second would not be guaranteed).
The thing is, ‘gradually’ has already failed with Obama's case, and especially with Hillary Clinton, because they weren't progressive enough to motivate their base to come out and vote. See my post last page where there's an account on Republican gains at state legislative bodies (a feature unique to the US, being able to set carbon taxes and minimum wage state-by-state instead of at a national level).
Or are you referring to Hunter Biden getting a job because of who is daddy is? If corruption means 'getting a job because of who your parents are', the entire US elite should be in prison for corruption on that alone.
They'd be a drain on the state if we put them in prison. A lifetime ban on public office should suffice.
 
It is corrupt to withhold military aid for your own personal gain. It is not corruption to withhold military aid as part of US policy to get rid of a prosecutor who is failing to prosecute corruption cases.

It is certainly corrupt to hire the son of the Vice President and pay him tens of thousands of dollars per month for basically no other reason than that he's the son of the Vice President. It is corrupt to accept this money which you're only getting because your father is the Vice President.

Or are you referring to Hunter Biden getting a job because of who is daddy is? If corruption means 'getting a job because of who your parents are', the entire US elite should be in prison for corruption on that alone.

I mean yes now you're getting the picture.

And this is precisely why this move is genius for Trump. Because Hunter Biden's situation was corrupt and it is obvious to everyone with a brain. Democrats will make themselves look like complete hypocrites if they call for Trump's impeachment over this while ignoring Hunter's payoff.

The Intercept, hardly an outlet friendly to Biden, did an investigation of the allegations and determined it was basically fake news.
https://theintercept.com/2019/05/10...ndal-ukraine-absolute-nonsense-reformer-says/

Oh and just to be clear, yes, this theory that Joe had the prosecutor removed to protect Hunter is nonsense.
 
Thank you all for the enlightening replies. My superficial view was that America is inherently in a far more right-leaning position, at least in part due to decades of Cold War and diametrical opposition with the Left. Also that corporate grip on government is very strong and would get in the way of the application of liberal policy (i.e. healthcare, gun laws, labour legislation, etc.) due to, ahem, paradoxically liberal distribution of "contributions" among politicians.

Which they habitually do, my fellow Buenosairopolite.

Latin Wikipedia
leads me to believe the term would be "Bonaëropolite", but thank you for the courtesy. :hatsoff:

So you're from the port as well, so to speak?
 
Thank you all for the enlightening replies. My superficial view was that America is inherently in a far more right-leaning position, at least in part due to decades of Cold War and diametrical opposition with the Left. Also that corporate grip on government is very strong and would get in the way of the application of liberal policy (i.e. healthcare, gun laws, labour legislation, etc.) due to, ahem, paradoxically liberal distribution of "contributions" among politicians.



Latin Wikipedia
leads me to believe the term would be "Bonaëropolite", but thank you for the courtesy. :hatsoff:

So you're from the port as well, so to speak?
Our politicians and pundits do not reflect the actual people. As far as democracy goes, we kind of suck at it. Popular legislation like 100% mandatory background checks can't get passed and our legislative branch regularly sits below a 25% approval rating.

There are words that scare the older cold war educated generation but pretty much anyone who started school after the reunification of Germany and the fall of the USSR is much more open minded. Especially those of us that are willing to compare our absurdly corrupt and abusive healthcare and educational system to others around the world. I consider it extremely unpatriotic to entertain the idea that the US is incapable of having a healthcare system that's cheaper, universal and has outcomes that match the best in the industrialized world.
 
It is certainly corrupt to hire the son of the Vice President and pay him tens of thousands of dollars per month for basically no other reason than that he's the son of the Vice President. It is corrupt to accept this money which you're only getting because your father is the Vice President.



I mean yes now you're getting the picture.

And this is precisely why this move is genius for Trump. Because Hunter Biden's situation was corrupt and it is obvious to everyone with a brain. Democrats will make themselves look like complete hypocrites if they call for Trump's impeachment over this while ignoring Hunter's payoff.



Oh and just to be clear, yes, this theory that Joe had the prosecutor removed to protect Hunter is nonsense.

And the obvious solution is too kick Biden out of the primaries and initiate proceedings against him also.

But because the democrats have already handed him the nomination, they have to go for broke with an even more crooked filthy politician than they had 2016.

Trump could be very be out of office and in handcuffs by Christmas if they'd take their heads out of their asses.
 
And the obvious solution is too kick Biden out of the primaries and initiate proceedings against him also.

Initiate proceedings against him for what? It's Hunter who did something wrong here, not Joe. And the wrong thing he did is not illegal, which is part of the problem, but I only support retroactive justice in extraordinary cases which this is not.

Trump could be very be out of office and in handcuffs by Christmas if they'd take their heads out of their asses.

Press X to doubt
 
If corruption means 'getting a job because of who your parents are', the entire US elite should be in prison for corruption on that alone.

I'm sure this will play well to the poors/non economic elite/establishment voters. I mean it's not like the dem party needs them at all, if it plans to go with Biden.
You make it by working hard - unless your dad gets Ukraine to pay for your next decade.
That Trump himself is the product of nepotism doesn't mean that Biden gets a pass either, let alone with the actual voters. I think Trump was dump as usual in going after Biden now, but there is no smear; 600K dollars just cause of family influence is a scandal for most.
 
Why doesn’t Nancy Pelosi want to become the first woman POTUS? Mike Pence could be removed at the same time as The Donald. He is guilty of some of the same impeachable offenses as The D(onald Tr)ump.

Besides, it will remove the novelty of 1st woman president, increasing the chances for Bernie Sanders.
 
I'm sure this will play well to the poors/non economic elite/establishment voters. I mean it's not like the dem party needs them at all, if it plans to go with Biden.
You make it by working hard - unless your dad gets Ukraine to pay for your next decade.
That Trump himself is the product of nepotism doesn't mean that Biden gets a pass either, let alone with the actual voters. I think Trump was dump as usual in going after Biden now, but there is no smear; 600K dollars just cause of family influence is a scandal for most.

Yes; a case of the "Pot calling the Kettle black".
 
@Azem.Ocram
I don't think the case against Pence would be nearly as clear cut. And indeed a lot of the ability of the Senate to convict Trump won't be on the technical points of the impeachment inquiry and proceedings but rather on Trump's popularity and perception with the public. While I agree Pence needs to be removed, I don't think his popularity will be so tarnished by a Trump impeachment and conviction for the Senate to also turn on him and thereby hand the Presidency to Pelosi.
 
Why doesn’t Nancy Pelosi want to become the first woman POTUS? Mike Pence could be removed at the same time as The Donald. He is guilty of some of the same impeachable offenses as The D(onald Tr)ump.

Besides, it will remove the novelty of 1st woman president, increasing the chances for Bernie Sanders.

1. Its unlikely to happen

2. Even if it does its a bad look. Or first women PM was because she rolled the leader. She went on to lose a general election to another women who was the first elected women PM (and she is still reasonably popular).

Situation 2 would also play badly for the Dems by using the impeachment process to seize power.

In the 70s boh Nixon and Agnew were crap so Agnew resigned and Nixon installed a new vice president before he went down so you had president Ford until he lost to Carter.
 
Trump could be very be out of office and in handcuffs by Christmas if they'd take their heads out of their asses.

Come on, that's saying little. The only reason Trump is in office is because they have had their heads up in their asses for decades now. And many of them would rather have Trump reelected than Sanders or some hypothetical other non-corrupt candidate elected.
 
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