2020 US Election (Part One)

[luiz]

*shrugs* the term is useful in some contexts, less useful in others. You should however consider that it's obvious to the rest of us that your hostility to the term is connected with your general denial that racism is an ongoing problem in the US and elsewhere.

I say it's an useless term because "of color" encompasses groups that have more in common, socially and economically, with whites than with other "of colors". It encompasses groups that face discrimination and others that don't (or that indeed are known for discriminating, such as the Japanese).

The world is not the USA of the 1960's, divided between blacks and whites. This division makes no sense, it's condescending and useless.

I do acknowledge that racism continues to exist. I do deny that "people of color", in general, are victims of racism. Many clearly are not, even at the group level. So if you wanna talk about discrimination that inner-city blacks face in parts of the US, talk about that. If you wanna talk about discrimination that Mexicans face in Arizona or wherever, talk about that. Don't talk about "communities of color facing hardship and discrimination" because that's bollocks and you know it.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

So there is no "white VS others" anymore

The existence of ICE and the history of the American Police Forces disagree with you, as do the lived experiences of non-white people in America and i count Native American's amongst those also being actively discriminated against.

Not even touching upon the ascendency of Trump and his blatant animus for non-whites, especially Brown Hispanics.

I do deny that "people of color", in general, are victims of racism.

Yiiikes.

 

[luiz]

The existence of ICE and the history of the American Police Forces disagree with you, as do the lived experiences of non-white people in America and i count Native American's amongst those also being actively discriminated against.

Not even touching upon the ascendency of Trump and his blatant animus for non-whites, especially Brown Hispanics.

Is ICE really bothering Japanese-Americans, though?
Or Jewish Americans?
Are these groups being particularly brutalized by the police?

Yiiikes.

Under the moronic US PC terminology I am a "person of color", and yet I have never, ever, been racially discriminated in the US, even though I lived there a significant chunk of my life. Not by the police, not by immigration authorities, not by banks, by employers... The same is true for millions of others, and indeed entire and huge groups usually called "of color" don't face any systemic discrimination in the US, as hinted by the fact that they're doing much better than white Americans (richer, more educated, less incarcerated, live longer, etc etc).

Get over your high horse. Not everyone wants to play your oppression Olympics. I don't feel sorry for you being a minority, and I don't need you to be sorry for me either. I do great, "PoC" or not.

 

[Gorbles]

Well I think "person of color" is an extremely condescending term, created by white American academics, much like "Native American". But that's just me.

It is just you, because that doesn't match up with its actual historical origin.

My point is that in 2020 we should not still be dividing the world between white and "the rest". This might have been useful for simplicity in the US of the 60's and 70's, which as I mentioned earlier was pretty much 90% white, 10% black, and very little everything else. As this was the period where anti-racist rhetoric caught on, Americans keep using terms which are simply confusing for the present US, and outright useless for the overall world.

I mean in the 60's you clearly had one better off group, and one worse off, one oppressed and one not. Today it would be absurd to say that all non-whites are oppressed or worse off. I mean, Asians do better than whites in pretty much every social and economic metric, and unlike in the 60's, they are now a very significant group. The richest ethnic group in the US are Indian-Americans. Within the largest minority, Hispanics, many subgroups actually outperform the overall population economically, including large subgroups such as Cuban Americans. So there is no "white VS others" anymore. The others are extremely diverse, some do far better than whites, and indeed have far more in common with whites than with other non-whites.

So lets dump this archaic and condescending term that creates more confusion than clarity, and rather understand that different groups are not part of one big colored bucket.

The problem with all of this is that you're mixing and matching ethnic demographics when it suits you. Asian-Americans apparently being better off than some unspecified demographic of white (working class? Working poor? What are we working with here, exactly) doesn't mean that other demographics aren't worse off. You're using examples of a demographic doing well to invalidate the lack of progress made in general against people of colour in America. That sits all kinds of wrong with me.

Is the world a more diverse place? Yes. Does that mean we've solved racism? No. Does that mean we no longer need a term to refer to ethnic demographics that is respectful? Also no. Does that mean that "person of colour" will be the best way to phrase this, for all of time? Of course not.

The power structures that compromise the USA are overwhelmingly white, and also still trend male. Much like we have LGBTQ+ for demographics marginalised on accord of their sexual orientation, we have a different phrase for people of colour, and we've had it for decades.

The problem here is, as you've handily demonstated with your response to Cloud, is this is just about your opposition to all things "PC". About your derision for the so-called "oppression Olympics". You don't care about the proper use of linguistics. You're opposed based on your own ideologies and worldview, and nothing else.

It's cool that your life has worked out for you. But it's the height of privilege to declare that this means there are no problems anymore just because we don't live in the 60s anymore. I'm from the UK, and we don't live in the 60s anymore. But we still have structural issues with racism and sexism. So does the US. I'm sorry the facts annoy you.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Is ICE really bothering Japanese-Americans, though?
Or Jewish Americans?
Are these groups being particularly brutalized by the police?

I don't think you'd care either way to be honest.

Under the moronic US PC terminology I am a "person of color", and yet I have never, ever, been racially discriminated in the US, even though I lived there a significant chunk of my life. Not by the police, not by immigration authorities, not by banks, by employers... The same is true for millions of others, and indeed entire and huge groups usually called "of color" don't face any systemic discrimination in the US, as hinted by the fact that they're doing much better than white Americans (richer, more educated, less incarcerated, live longer, etc etc).

This is absolutely not true for African-Americans, unless of course you think they're lying, collectively?

Get over your high horse. Not everyone wants to play your oppression Olympics. I don't feel sorry for you being a minority, and I don't need you to be sorry for me either. I do great, "PoC" or not.

I'm sorry that you feel that way, old man.

 

[luiz]

It is just you, because that doesn't match up with its actual historical origin.

Yeah I'd bet big bucks this term was invented by some white American.

The problem with all of this is that you're mixing and matching ethnic demographics when it suits you. Asian-Americans apparently being better off than some unspecified demographic of white (working class? Working poor? What are we working with here, exactly) doesn't mean that other demographics aren't worse off. You're using examples of a demographic doing well to invalidate the lack of progress made in general against people of colour in America. That sits all kinds of wrong with me.

Is the world a more diverse place? Yes. Does that mean we've solved racism? No. Does that mean we no longer need a term to refer to ethnic demographics that is respectful? Also no. Does that mean that "person of colour" will be the best way to phrase this, for all of time? Of course not.

The power structures that compromise the USA are overwhelmingly white, and also still trend male. Much like we have LGBTQ+ for demographics marginalised on accord of their sexual orientation, we have a different phrase for people of colour, and we've had it for decades.

The problem here is, as you've handily demonstated with your response to Cloud, is this is just about your opposition to all things "PC". About your derision for the so-called "oppression Olympics". You don't care about the proper use of linguistics. You're opposed based on your own ideologies and worldview, and nothing else.

It's cool that your life has worked out for you. But it's the height of privilege to declare that this means there are no problems anymore just because we don't live in the 60s anymore. I'm from the UK, and we don't live in the 60s anymore. But we still have structural issues with racism and sexism. So does the US. I'm sorry the facts annoy you.

*I* am mixing and matching? No, I am rather explaining that dividing the world between whites and "of colors" is not only condescending, it's also incredibly useless. It is false to say there was "lack of progress" in general by "people of color" in America. Many of the groups included in this useless umbrella made so much progress, that indeed today they are much better-off than whites. BTW I'm talking about averages and medians. The average Asian American is richer, more educated, and less likely to be incarcerated than the average white American (including everybody, from working class to billionaires). This alone shows how useless this umbrella term is. What do Indian-Americans (the richest ethnic group in the US) or Argentinian-Americans (also much richer than average white Americans) have in common with say Haitian-Americans?

It's an useless term, that reflects a time a circumstance that don't exist anymore.

 

[luiz]

I don't think you'd care either way to be honest.

That was not my question. Don't be dishonest, girl.

This is absolutely not true for African-Americans, unless of course you think they're lying, collectively?

Indeed it isn't. So instead of talking about "people of color" facing this or that, talk about Blacks, Mexican-Americans, etc.Which was exactly my point, no?

I'm sorry that you feel that way, old man.

Why, young girl?
You prefer self-pity to self-reliance? Then carry on, you're like the dictionary definition of self-pity.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

It's an useless term, that reflects a time a circumstance that don't exist anymore.

Hey, Black and Brown people are still discriminated in 2020, sorry that reality conflicts with your utopian beliefs, perhaps rather than trying to contort yourself into shapes trying to ignore the lived experiences of people who're likely alot poorer and less edcuated than yourself, you should accept that for many America's promise of treating everyone equally is still a far-away pipe dream.

 

[luiz]

Hey, Black and Brown people are still discriminated in 2020, sorry that reality conflicts with your utopian beliefs, perhaps rather than trying to contort yourself into shapes trying to ignore the lived experiences of people who're likely alot poorer and less edcuated than yourself, you should accept that for many America's promise of treating everyone equally is still a far-away pipe dream.

Who is brown, though? A Jewish guy? Me? An Iranian? A Japanese banker? An emirati prince? An Indian-American heart surgeon making 800k per year? The CEOs of Google and Microsoft? A blonde, blue-eyed Argentinian-American living in some penthouse in Miami?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

That was not my question. Don't be dishonest, girl.

I call it like i see it.

Indeed it isn't. So instead of talking about "people of color" facing this or that, talk about Blacks, Mexican-Americans, etc.Which was exactly my point, no?

So when you talk about "Asians" who exactly are you talking about? The circumstances of Chinese-Americans, some of whom came to this country already wealthy, are very different from Japanese-Americans, which are very different to Pakistani and Indian Americans, which are very different to Palestinian-Americans and Lebanese-Americans, do you see where I'm going with this?

Why, young girl?
You prefer self-pity to self-reliance? Then carry on, you're like the dictionary definition of self-pity.

I've been transitioning for years, I've held down a job for a good amount of time, if i was the "dictionary definition of self-pity" i would have killed myself by now, it's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about and just throwing out random crap.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Who is brown, though? A Jewish guy? Me? An Iranian? A Japanese banker? An emirati prince? An Indian-American heart surgeon making 800k per year? The CEOs of Google and Microsoft? A blonde, blue-eyed Argentinian-American living in some penthouse in Miami?

There was a time when Germans, Russians, th French, Italians and even the Irish weren't considered "White" in American society.

With that now clear in your mind, perhaps you should take a second to realize that race has as much to do with society and social construct than it does with biology or any sort objective markers.

That, however, doesn't erase the fact that different groups are still subjected to varying forms of discrimination.

 

[Gorbles]

Yeah I'd bet big bucks this term was invented by some white American.

It's an useless term, that reflects a time a circumstance that don't exist anymore.

I welcome your efforts to introduce a replacement that accounts for all the complexities in society you described.

I'm not here for your revisionist approach to undermining equal rights because "on average" some demographics marginalised by their race do better by virtue of their class privilege compared to others. You don't understand intersectionality, basically.

 

[luiz]

I welcome your efforts to introduce a replacement that accounts for all the complexities in society you described.

I'm not here for your revisionist approach to undermining equal rights because "on average" some demographics marginalised by their race do better by virtue of their class privilege compared to others. You don't understand intersectionality, basically.

Hahahaha!
How can one entire ethnic group, such as Asian Americans, do better by virtue of their class than another entire ethnic group, such as white Americans??
It is you who don't understand class! Asian-Americans come in all classes, just like whites. But in average, and on median, they do better than whites. What gives?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Hahahaha!
How can one entire ethnic group, such as Asian Americans, do better by virtue of their class than another entire ethnic group, such as white Americans??
It is you who don't understand class! Asian-Americans come in all classes, just like whites. But in average, and on median, they do better than whites. What gives?

Except this isn't even true unless you're going to start bunching all Asian-Americans into one single group, as soon as you start looking at those from differing backgrounds you actually see that they aren't so uniform.

 

[Gorbles]

Hahahaha!
How can one entire ethnic group, such as Asian Americans, do better by virtue of their class than another entire ethnic group, such as white Americans??
It is you who don't understand class! Asian-Americans come in all classes, just like whites. But in average, and on median, they do better than whites. What gives?

But we're not talking about the entire group, as you yourself claimed. The median is not "the entire group". It really seems like you don't understand statistics.

 

[luiz]

I call it like i see it.

You see poorly. Self-pity tends to blur the vision a bit.

So when you talk about "Asians" who exactly are you talking about? The circumstances of Chinese-Americans, some of whom came to this country already wealthy, are very different from Japanese-Americans, which are very different to Pakistani and Indian Americans, which are very different to Palestinian-Americans and Lebanese-Americans, do you see where I'm going with this?

YES!
You are making exactly my point! There is so much diversity within the groups put together under this stupid umbrella group that it's completely useless. Many of the sub-groups within this idiotic "PoC" bucket don't face any systemic discrimination; indeed their indicators are often closer or better than those of white Americans.

SO if you wanna talk about the discrimination and hardship suffered by inner-city Black Americans, or Mexican-Americans or whatever, talk about thse groups. Don't talk about some huge umbrella group that encompasses demographics that do indeed far better than the average American!

I've been transitioning for years, I've held down a job for a good amount of time, if i was the "dictionary definition of self-pity" i would have killed myself by now, it's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about and just throwing out random crap.

Good for you. You do come across as extremely self-pitying, though, and it ain't pretty.

 

[luiz]

Except this isn't even true unless you're going to start bunching all Asian-Americans into one single group, as soon as you start looking at those from differing backgrounds you actually see that they aren't so uniform.

Even more to my point, then!
Talk about Indian-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Filipino-Americans... not coloreds! (oh, sorry, "of colors").

Each group is indeed different, sometimes radically different, and dividing the whole world between whites and coloreds as if the whole globe was the US in 1960 is condescending, stupid and above all, completely useless.

 

[luiz]

But we're not talking about the entire group, as you yourself claimed. The median is not "the entire group". It really seems like you don't understand statistics.

I am talking about the entire group. To calculate the median or the average you have to look at the entire group.
Looking at the entire group and taking the average, or the median to account for inequality etc, Asians do better than whites in the US. Now what?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

You see poorly.

Why yes I do wear glasses.

YES!
You are making exactly my point! There is so much diversity within the groups put together under this stupid umbrella group that it's completely useless. Many of the sub-groups within this idiotic "PoC" bucket don't face any systemic discrimination; indeed their indicators are often closer or better than those of white Americans.

SO if you wanna talk about the discrimination and hardship suffered by inner-city Black Americans, or Mexican-Americans or whatever, talk about thse groups. Don't talk about some huge umbrella group that encompasses demographics that do indeed far better than the average American!

So why the **** are you then claiming Asians on average do better when that simply isn't the case unless they bunch them into a singular group?

Good for you. You do come across as extremely self-pitying, though, and it ain't pretty.

My attitude towards myself is the direct result of how society has treated me, perhaps if i wasn't born in such a bigoted time i might have had a normal life comparable to that of a cis-woman, but i didn't. Broken systems tend to produce broken people, ask any abuse victim; be it sexual, physical or mental.

I could care less if you think my attitude isn't pretty, if you were in my shoes you'd either be dead as a result of people attacking you or by suicide, so don't lecture me from your ivory tower about how i should be or how i should live my life, I am in the state i am as a result of how i was raised, abused and treated.

 

[luiz]

So why the **** are you then claiming Asians on average do better when that simply isn't the case unless they bunch them into a singular group?

Well because that's just a hard fact. Asians on average do better than whites in the US, that is simply the case.
Some Asian subgroups don't; but then again some white subgroups do pretty badly as well. If we take the entire group, Asians do better than whites.

My attitude towards myself is the direct result of how society has treated me, perhaps if i wasn't born in such a bigoted time i might have had a normal life comparable to that of a cis-woman, but i didn't. Broken systems tend to produce broken people, ask any abuse victim; be it sexual, physical or mental.

I could care less if you think my attitude isn't pretty, if you were in my shoes you'd either be dead as a result of people attacking you or by suicide, so don't lecture me from your ivory tower about how i should be or how i should live my life.

Not interested in lecturing you, your life is yours to do as you please. Your attitude reeks of self-pity, though, and I find self-pity to be vomit-inducing.

Now of course you know nothing about me, what I can take or what it would take to kill me. Don't make assumptions, and don't pity yourself into thinking you necessarily have had it worse than everyone else.