2020 US Election (Part One)

[Cloud_Strife]

Not interested in lecturing you, your life is yours to do as you please. Your attitude reeks of self-pity, though, and I find self-pity to be vomit-inducing.

Except you clearly are because you find it appropiate to pillory me for my "self-pity".

Don't make assumptions, and don't pity yourself into thinking you necessarily have had it worse than everyone else

Oh, so you've been beaten up for being specifically and visibly trans then, right? If not, i'm pretty sure i can claim to have had it worse in that regard in comparison to cispeople.

 

[Gorbles]

I am talking about the entire group. To calculate the median or the average you have to look at the entire group.
Looking at the entire group and taking the average, or the median to account for inequality etc, Asians do better than whites in the US. Now what?

You're saying two things. You said, in a previous post, the "entire ethnic group". If, on average, Asian-Americans do better than white Americans do, that means there are a lot of Asian-Americans that do worse. The entire ethnic group can't be doing better than the entire ethnic group that is white Americans. Every single member of that group cannot have it better than every single member of the other, for nothing if not the trite example of multibillionaires like Bezos or Gates. You're actually abusing the median, here, to avoid engaging with all the Asian-Americans that might have it worse off.

Besides, you keep raising Asian-Americans as your example to say how we shouldn't care about people of colour, when that's a single ethnic demographic (and a very complicated one at that). You invoking Asian-Americans doesn't answer any problems any other racially-marginalised demographic suffers from.

Poor people regardless of their demographic suffer from wealth inequality. But using that as a cudgel against racism in modern America is incredibly bad faith. I don't expect you to stop, because this is far from the first time you've specifically used the Asian-American demographic in America to claim that racism isn't an issue anymore (which is problematic in of itself), but at least I've been able to lay out why.

 

[luiz]

You're saying two things. You said, in a previous post, the "entire ethnic group". If, on average, Asian-Americans do better than white Americans do, that means there are a lot of Asian-Americans that do worse. The entire ethnic group can't be doing better than the entire ethnic group that is white Americans. Every single member of that group cannot have it better than every single member of the other, for nothing if not the trite example of multibillionaires like Bezos or Gates. You're actually abusing the median, here, to avoid engaging with all the Asian-Americans that might have it worse off.

Besides, you keep raising Asian-Americans as your example to say how we shouldn't care about people of colour, when that's a single ethnic demographic (and a very complicated one at that). You invoking Asian-Americans doesn't answer any problems any other racially-marginalised demographic suffers from.

Poor people regardless of their demographic suffer from wealth inequality. But using that as a cudgel against racism in modern America is incredibly bad faith. I don't expect you to stop, because this is far from the first time you've specifically used the Asian-American demographic in America to claim that racism isn't an issue anymore (which is problematic in of itself), but at least I've been able to lay out why.

What you says makes no sense at all.
When we say that Blacks do worse than whites in the US, we talk about averages and medians. Obviously, some Black individuals do far better than white individuals. By the exact same metrics under which blacks do worse than whites in the US, Asians do better than whites. Ergo, just as it's fair and accurate to say that blacks do worse than whites, it's fair and accurate to say that Asians do better. I can engage with Asian Americans that have worse off, but you actually have far more whites that have it worse off, both in absolute and relative terms. So you're really making no sense and displaying a deep lack of understanding of statistics and demographic data.

Second, it's not true that I "keep raising Asian-Americans". I already mentioned that several, and some quite large, Hispanic subgroups such as Cuban-Americans and Argentinian-Americans are richer and better educated and in general do better than the average American. I specifically also mentioned Jews, Iranians, Turks...

My point is precisely that many groups continue to be significantly under-privileged, but this is not true at all for "people of color" in general, because it's such a broad term to be completely useless. I've not once denied that many groups still struggle; my point was precisely that by putting these groups in the same bucket as others that do better than whites, you are indeed watering down the argument. I furthermore pointed out that this binary division between whites and coloreds is a relic of US racial speech of the 60's and 70's, when American was society was indeed basically split between a very large white majority and a black minority. This dichotomy makes no sense to the present-day US, when you have so many large and incredibly different groups that have such a different experience regarding discrimination and economic achievement and empowerment. And the dichotomy never made sense when applied to the whole world, which American academics love to do, displaying all their provincialism and condescension.

 

[luiz]

Except you clearly are because you find it appropiate to pillory me for my "self-pity".

I just say it as I see it...

Oh, so you've been beaten up for being specifically and visibly trans then, right? If not, i'm pretty sure i can claim to have had it worse in that regard in comparison to cispeople.

Only trans people can be beaten up? I've been stabbed and shot at. My abdomen still has the big stab scar, many many years later. I've had a gun pointed to my face for over 1 hour by someone with very little to lose and high on drugs. Have you? I can promise you when you're being shot or stabbed, it doesn't really matter if it's done because you're trans or for altogether different reasons, or even no reason at all.

But I never said I "had it worse", nor am I interested in this sort of oppression Olympics - they disgust me. In general, I'd say I had it great. But that doesn't mean I didn't have my fair share of crap thrown at me; it doesn't mean I'm some softy who would crumble by people being mean to me. That's an incorrect assumption by you motivated by self-pity - you think you always face bigger problems. It's not a great attitude to go through life, if you'll take advice from an "old man" (I'm 35 BTW).

 

[Gorbles]

So, like I said, find a better phrase @luiz. Until then, I'll stick with the one that's commonly-accepted, is the least problematic, and wasn't just invented for the sake of being "PC". Hopefully along the way I've explained why existing, alternative words or phrases are worse-suited.

Also, a massive yikes on your continued lack of understanding of intersectionality.

 

[Zardnaar]

So, like I said, find a better phrase @luiz. Until then, I'll stick with the one that's commonly-accepted, is the least problematic, and wasn't just invented for the sake of being "PC". Hopefully along the way I've explained why existing, alternative words or phrases are worse-suited.

Also, a massive yikes on your continued lack of understanding of intersectionality.

Intersectionality us just a buzzword normal people don't really care about.

You're literally inventing stupid words people don't understand then getting all preachy when they don't really understand what you're talking about.

Or if they do understand it it comes off as a lecture.

Trump 2016 won because if this.

1. Make America great.
2. You're all deplorable vote for me.

Assuming one isn't an alt right or SJW ones a bit more appealing than the other.

 

[Traitorfish]

I say it's an useless term because "of color" encompasses groups that have more in common, socially and economically, with whites than with other "of colors". It encompasses groups that face discrimination and others that don't (or that indeed are known for discriminating, such as the Japanese).

You can't use the terminology of American race-relations to describe Japan or Mexico or India, so that terminology is bad.

You can't use the terminology of wine-tasting to describe exotic fish, so that's bad too.

How far do you think we can take this reasoning?

 

[Ajidica]

Intersectionality us just a buzzword normal people don't really care about.

The quarterly Egyptian wheat tender is a Thing 'normal people' don't really care about. Doesn't mean it doesn't affect them.

 

[luiz]

So, like I said, find a better phrase @luiz. Until then, I'll stick with the one that's commonly-accepted, is the least problematic, and wasn't just invented for the sake of being "PC". Hopefully along the way I've explained why existing, alternative words or phrases are worse-suited.

Also, a massive yikes on your continued lack of understanding of intersectionality.

I already have better terms. If you want to talk about issues that blacks face, use "blacks". "Mexicans" or "Mexican-Americans" for that particular Hispanic subgroup. "Arabs", "Persians/Iranians", "Asian-Americans" (or "Chinese-Americans" etc etc if you need to be more specific), "Jews", etc. These groups are so different when it comes to discrimination faced and economic progress in the US (or abroad) that putting them all in the same bucket, opposed to some other white bucket, makes no sense at all.

The world is *not* divided between whites and coloreds in any meaningful way. No binary approach is going to work. We have to actually acknowledge diversity and what that entails, not just pay lip service to it by using condescending woke terminology.

 

[luiz]

You can't use the terminology of American race-relations to describe Japan or Mexico or India, so that terminology is bad.

You can't use the terminology of wine-tasting to describe exotic fish, so that's bad too.

How far do you think we can take this reasoning?

Well Americans do apply that terminology to talk about the whole world, though, don't they?

As I said, it made sense in the US of the 60's and 70's, when much of modern academic racial discourse was born. Back then the US was virtually 90% white, 10% black, and very little everything else. So for simplicity sake, people talked of "whites and blacks". This later migrated to "whites and PoCs", but it makes no sense in the US of 2020, which has a very different ethnic composition than the US of 1970, and it never made sense when applied to the whole world.

 

[Zardnaar]

PoC doesn't really get used here.

 

[Takhisis]

The nonsense is strong here. Let's see
1- what does making a factual distinction between authoritarianism and totalitarianism tell about my values?

Does the Uyghur genocide not show them as totalitarians? Forced sterilisation? The single-party regime? The dystopian social credit system? Come on, ‘not the Khmer Rouge’ is not the best standard you can come up with.

2- more importantly, what in God's name does thinking that PoC is a stupid term tells about my values? In the mental world you inhabit, people with good values must like the term PoC? Seems like a dark, arid mental word.

You've already been answered on that and you are clearly starting with the premise that you cannot be wrong so I'll let their point stand.

 

[Gorbles]

Intersectionality us just a buzzword normal people don't really care about.

It even has its own Wikipedia page. Instead of assuming people are inventing these words you haven't heard of, and using that as an excuse to pretend that I'm getting "preachy" in a discussion that didn't involve you in the slightest, be more open to the ideas that exist in the world.

 

[Zardnaar]

It even has its own Wikipedia page. Instead of assuming people are inventing these words you haven't heard of, and using that as an excuse to pretend that I'm getting "preachy" in a discussion that didn't involve you in the slightest, be more open to the ideas that exist in the world.

Lol.
Rough translation. Well justify anything as racist or sexist.

The average voter isn't going to respond to that. You do realize you need to win elections?

We don't really use such garbage here and I bet we beat the USA on race relations and virtually every metric related to it. We're not perfect obviously.

Such things are more if a cultural problem. America has a lot if cultural problems glad I don't live there.

Big solution to lots of problems. Chill pills.

 

[Narz]

Did you guys know there's an election happening soon?

 

[Zardnaar]

Did you guys know there's an election happening soon?

I don't think some people actually want to win. Makes posing online and collecting woke points harder.

Collect enough woke points and you can move to San Francisco and sniff your own farts.

 

[Gorbles]

Lol.
Rough translation. Well justify anything as racist or sexist.

The average voter isn't going to respond to that. You do realize you need to win elections?

We don't really use such garbage here and I bet we beat the USA on race relations and virtually every metric related to it. We're not perfect obviously.

Such things are more if a cultural problem. America has a lot if cultural problems glad I don't live there.

Big solution to lots of problems. Chill pills.

I was talking in a thread in OT, on a forum known as CivFanatics, on race relations. Particularly apt given the US has an election coming up. I wasn't aiming to convert swathes of US voters to some radical leftist cause. Don't worry yourself too much

 

[Farm Boy]

So a New Zealander, a Brit, and a South American walk into a bar. How racist should we say this makes the American Midwest?

 

[Zardnaar]

So a New Zealander, a Brit, and a South American walk into a bar. How racist should we say this makes the American Midwest?

It means we should think we're bad people and blame the white patriarchy.

 

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: Back to the topic of the 2020 election, please. If you wish to discuss other topics, please feel free to create another thread to do so.