Oh, not this again.
2020 US Election (Part Two)
- Thread starter Lexicus
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Zardnaar
Deity
Left only has power if it wins elections. Sanders couldn't even win the primary and under performed.
That's with the best case voters mist sympathetic to his cause.
Say Trump wins 2020 and you get a progressive candidate in 2024.
Let's say they win.
They go to pass some progressive law. Constitutional challenge and Trump's appointed another SCOTUS judge or 2.
Law goes nowhere.
Biden won't be around for long. Trump's judges will be.
Let's not just focus on the SC. What's happening at the lower levels is equally bad.
I don't care if the left proves it has power. But if they use that power to give us another 4 years of trump, they have only themselves to blame when the judicial arm swings even farther right.
I don't care if the left proves it has power. But if they use that power to give us another 4 years of trump, they have only themselves to blame when the judicial arm swings even farther right.
Socrates99
Bottoms up!
If democrats can't win without the left then the left does have power. Leverage over the candidates and party. It's how the freedom caucus took over the GoP.
People keep pointing out the judge thing. He hasn't revealed any picks. How do we know it won't be some pro corporate centrist like Garland? I just don't care about this marginally better than/not quite as bad as the republicans bullfeathers.
Clinton did the crime bill, nafta, welfare "reform," and deregulated the banks and media. Obama ramped up the wars after promising to end them, left Gitmo open, failed to prosecute torturers and war criminals, made the Bush tax cuts set to sunset permanent, pushed TPP, opened the Arctic to drilling and increased deportations leaving the system intact for the current admin to abuse.
During all of this Biden as senator and vp backed the worst of these policies under both Republican and Democrat admins. At best he's "somewhat better." I'd say he's worse on some things. The problem with a guy like Biden is he'll do a lot of the terrible horsehocky we call trump out for but Democrat voters will kick back and let it happen because he's team blue and "not as bad as the other guy." I'd rather see four more years of trump outrage than democrats asleep while Biden and Pelosi carry out a policy agenda that would've given Ronald Reagan a stiffy.
hobbsyoyo
Deity
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You really think democracy in America can bounce back after 4 more years of Trump? I don't.
Socrates99
Bottoms up!
If you honestly consider our current government to be a democracy you're a tad delusional. So if by bounce back you mean back to something before bribery was legalized, I'd hope so but I don't think Biden (who has jokingly admitted that he's willing to prostitute himself) is the guy to do it. People angry over the transparent corruption of Trump is more likely to push things in the right direction than having the only outlets calling out Biden being Fox and fringe outlets online.
I also think it's hyperbolic to think Trump has any ability to stay in power beyond 2 two terms. There are right wing loonies that might like to see him as dictator but the majority don't want anything like that. I'm not even sure Trump would want it. He'll be pardoned or let off by his successor like GHWB did for Reagan and Obama did for GWB. Trump wants his two terms so he can't be called a lame one term president, then he'll retire, get his sweet post presidential retirement package, do some media stuff and enjoy being called "Mr. President" until his old black heart fails. The idea that his real crimes which have basically just been allowed to slide during the Manchurian Candidate mumbo jumbo are actually going to be prosecuted and that he'll cling to power to stay out of prison is a fever dream cooked up by smug liberals.
Jesus, having to debunk crap like that makes me sound like a crackpot right winger. We need to get real about what Trump is. He's a garbage person but he's inept and stupid. He's not the guy who's going to topple this system.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
My claim is that the Democratic Party risk throwing the election by alienating young and progressive voters.
I state explicitly that these voters may not consciously withhold their votes from the Democratic Party, but will simply be less diligent about ensuring they vote, and less enthusiastic about encouraging others to vote. Elections aren't won by having the best argument or the most credible personality, they're won by voter-mobilisation, and this is especially true of centre-left parties, whose voters are predominantly young, poor or minority, and therefore less likely to vote than the older, richer and whiter voters who comprise the support base of the centre-right.
How did you come to interpret that as "it is better to throw the election to Trump"?
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Nothing worrying, just the President of the United States threatening to withdraw state funding on the basis of . . . allowing voting by mail?
I'm sure it's fine
As loathe as I am to use Twitter as a direct source, this is both pertinent to the election cycle and even though likely hot air, this is the president's official Twitter account. Imagine if a predecessor had signalled something like this. Imagine the papers.
I'm sure it's fine
As loathe as I am to use Twitter as a direct source, this is both pertinent to the election cycle and even though likely hot air, this is the president's official Twitter account. Imagine if a predecessor had signalled something like this. Imagine the papers.
As usual Trump's getting pwned by Twitter. I cannot tell whether ‘the one being investigated for fraud is Trump’ ‘Trump is a mail-in voter’ or ‘if everyone votes you lose. That's not cheating, it's reality’ is my favourite, but there's something to be said for how voting for Republicans kills people.
Ajidica
High Quality Person
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Oh God this election is going to be terrible; because US media and the general public view everything as revolving around the US and not realizing that people in other countries have their own agendas.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...den-petro-poroshenko-recordings-investigation
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...den-petro-poroshenko-recordings-investigation
I mean, you still call your baseball champions ‘world champions’. There's an entire mindset that goes along with that. :/
RobAnybody
Emperor
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But they don't appear to simply want to "not be alienated". They appear to want to be begged for forgiveness, kowtowed to, & worshiped. Or else they'll take their Participation Trophy, go home, & complain on social media that more people should vote for Bernie (even though they didn't vote for Bernie).
Primarily being an observer to this discussion, I notice that it's mostly the people least likely to be hurt by Trump & the Republicans who are oddly singularly focused on defeating Trump. While those most likely to be hurt by their policies are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. People like, me, Tim, Narz, rah, hobbs - we don't live super awesome Bill Gates/Tom Brady lives (not to speak for any of you - maybe y'all are all secret millionaires with supermodel wives but just hiding it). But we are, again mostly assuming here from what I read, straight white males with pretty decent incomes & health care. We'll survive four more years of Trump. Heck, we might even come out better off, financially. But that's the group most focused on beating Trump, to the exclusion of any leftists wishlists or dream candidates which simply aren't going to happen
Don't people on the Left like to complain about people voting against their own interests? But then they threaten to go & do just that. Strikes me as odd is all.
Party 1 wants to take away things that are in my interests
Party 2 doesn't do anything for my interests and doesn't really try very hard to stop party 1 from doing their thing
neither one furthers my interests and we're tired of voting for people who don't do anything, only status quo at best. tired of being forced into voting for mediocrity by the good cop bad cop routine. If we don't kick up a stink about it nothing will ever change.
Party 2 doesn't do anything for my interests and doesn't really try very hard to stop party 1 from doing their thing
neither one furthers my interests and we're tired of voting for people who don't do anything, only status quo at best. tired of being forced into voting for mediocrity by the good cop bad cop routine. If we don't kick up a stink about it nothing will ever change.
RobAnybody
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Well, then enjoy having Party 1 stack the courts, disenfranchise voters, & overturn the rule of law so you literally can't ever get anything you want. Us well-off white dudes can ride this out just fine for the next few decades & then retire with our houses paid off, our fancy health care, & our massive 401ks. Can you? In 4, 8, or 12 years from now when you ask us why you can't also have nice things & we don't seem to care, we'll just point to Trump's 2nd Term.
Lexicus
Deity
"And so, the younger generation now tells me how tough things are — give me a break! No no, I have no empathy for it."
-Joe Biden, begging young people for forgiveness, kowtowing to and worshiping them
LOL. This is really the wrong angle of attack here. The Democrats aren't going to deliver any of these things to young people. Right now, what the Democrats can deliver is basically "liberal democracy, kinda" while the Republicans want to get rid of that. Democrats are essentially no different from Republicans when it comes to my prospects for fancy health care, a massive 401k or a paid-off house.
What an astounding lack of empathy.
Ajidica
High Quality Person
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I think you completely missed his point; that on this forum at least, the people who would be least affected by another four years of Trump are the most vocal about stopping him while the people likely most affected by another four years of Trump appear to be the least enthusiastic about stopping him.
Socrates99
Bottoms up!
because the people most affected already know Biden won't be substantially better. It's not like we didn't just live through 8 years of Obama getting hopes up only to let people down. That's what led to Trump in the first place.
People not affected? This is about the feels. "Orange man bad," he offends people so they can't stand 4 more years of Dump. It's a red v blue team thing. An emotional thing.
I was trying to post something similar but couldn't word it right.
Plus, throw in the fact that it's still, technically, primary season. We're not LOCKED IN to Biden at this point. He is completely fair to criticize for his many shortcomings.
One result of criticising said shortcomings in time is to be able, should he win, to then hold him to what has been asked of him. If he (or anybody else) runs on ‘I'm not Trump’ then that person can coast by for four years saying ‘you voted me to get Trump out so I've already delivered’, which is something Trump actually has achieved in delivering for the neverHillary! subsection of his voters.
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