[RD] Abortion, once again

[Remorseless1]

Abortion is indeed a complex milieu of culture, gender, race, economics, and discussion of government's role in society. Which is why the decision on such a matter should be left to the individual, not government, particularly because it only impacts half the population instead all of the population.

To me, however, it's pretty much this: Ain't nobody else's dang business. You don't like abortions? Don't get one. Your choice.

Do we really want the government telling us where to live, what vocation we choose, who we can marry, what church we have to attend, political views, etc.?

 

[Sommerswerd]

To me, however, it's pretty much this: Ain't nobody else's dang business. You don't like abortions? Don't get one. Your choice.

Its not that simple though... if it were that simple, the simple response(s) would be things like "You don't like slaves? Don't get one. Your choice." or "You don't like murders? Don't murder. Your choice."

Of course its not that simple, because all of those issues are different from each other... which is part of why I tend to be wary of trying to analogize abortion to other situations/circumstances. Just one (of many) of the complicating factors with abortion is the personhood component.

 

[EgonSpengler]

If somebody genuinely believes the unborn to be as human as a self-aware adult, with equivalent rights, they must weigh their right to life. It's a heavy consideration. It is totally consistent with common human morality to give more weight to the right to life than the right of another to pursue happiness. Lesser of two evils situation.

I suppose I don't think your example quite fits, Egon. It's pretty clear to me how a person can reasonably conclude that they're saying "Hey, stop!" to someone about to step on the head of a totally vulnerable person. Essentially, there is cause enough in their mind to act.

It's been a long time since I read Roe v Wade, but I think parts of it were related to what you're saying here. For instance, I believe it set the legality of an "elective" abortion at fetal viability. That was the compromise on what was human. In Judaism, iirc, a baby isn't a baby until birth. That's when they believe a baby is granted a soul. Before then, it's part of the mother's body.

In addition, I think US law generally allows a person to preserve their own life and well-being over another's. (I'm not a lawyer, so don't quote me on any of this.) In cases of medically-necessaryadvisable abortions, requiring a woman to prioritize her fetus over her own well-being would, I think, be one of the few times we do that. There's never a requirement to donate a kidney to someone who needs it, for example, even if not donating would result in the other person's death. I think RvW also allowed for aborting fetuses with medical conditions that would result in their deaths shortly after birth. We may remember the news coverage given to children born with microcephaly resulting from infection by the Zika virus a few years ago.

 

[Narz]

Abortion is indeed a complex milieu of culture, gender, race, economics, and discussion of government's role in society. Which is why the decision on such a matter should be left to the individual, not government, particularly because it only impacts half the population instead all of the population.

Being forced to have an unwanted child affects fathers also.

 

[Arwon]

I once spoke with a woman in an open relationship, bisexual, who supported a total abortion ban. She'd left the religion behind, but the cultural inheritance was still strong enough to give her a position entirely out of sync with the rest of her views.

At the time, I didn't think it was remarkable, because it's part of a pattern. I've met lifelong atheists who arrive at the conclusion that abortion is deeply immoral for reason X or Y, and support bans too, though less commonly.

It just isn't so black and white outside the echo chambers.

What you have described is the ideological influence of the American echo chamber. It's essentially the only western country where appreciable numbers of non-Catholics are at all likely to develop beliefs like this.

Very weird thing for a culture and politically system controlled by protestants, really.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Being forced to have an unwanted child affects fathers also.

Not this talking point again.

Mothers take on all the risks and responsibilities that fathers take (financial, social ect) PLUS a whole host of medical risks that the fathers don't have to take. Also women are held to much stricter societal standards than men.

Abortion is a medical decision. The prospective father should have no say in the matter as he will not be taking the medical risks involved in carrying a child to term.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Its not that simple though... if it were that simple, the simple response(s) would be things like "You don't like slaves? Don't get one. Your choice." or "You don't like murders? Don't murder. Your choice."

Of course its not that simple, because all of those issues are different from each other... which is part of why I tend to be wary of trying to analogize abortion to other situations/circumstances. Just one (of many) of the complicating factors with abortion is the personhood component.

The phrase "Don't like abortion? Don't have one" is directed toward people who will either never need to worry about it (being men), women who are past the age where pregnancy is possible, and so forth. In other words, its less polite translation is "Kindly STFU about what will never have any affect on your life and let those whom it could affect make up their own minds."

Of course there's a situation that is possible where an anti-abortionist woman gets into a situation where she becomes pregnant due to rape/incest, and she discovers that she doesn't want the eventual baby. Or there may be medical complications for the fetus, or the pregnancy may be ectopic. I can't wrap my mind around those who make the decision to carry a dead fetus, or any medical professional, politician, or judge who would force her to do that. Ditto a fetus who, after birth, would have a life expectancy of minutes. Or the pregnancy would kill the woman (especially if the "woman" is actually a child).

The latter is not a "miracle". It's essentially punishing a child for getting pregnant through no fault of her own and then not caring that her body simply isn't capable of what an adult female's body is.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Of course there's a situation that is possible where an anti-abortionist woman gets into a situation where she becomes pregnant due to rape/incest, and she discovers that she doesn't want the eventual baby. Or there may be medical complications for the fetus, or the pregnancy may be ectopic. I can't wrap my mind around those who make the decision to carry a dead fetus, or any medical professional, politician, or judge who would force her to do that. Ditto a fetus who, after birth, would have a life expectancy of minutes. Or the pregnancy would kill the woman (especially if the "woman" is actually a child).

I read an article about anti-abortion people getting abortions. Apparently there has been cases where they would be handing anti-abortion literature to the other people waiting in the clinic.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Being forced to have an unwanted child affects fathers also.

It's good someone pointed this out.

It's just simply wrong to say it only effects half the population.

Women are the only gender physically effected by carrying the pregnancy, but obviously, the emotional and financial impacts of having a child are going to direct the course of the fathers life. Post birth, the father may end up being the sole caregiver, for one reason or another. There are just so many ways hat becoming a parent(or having an additional child) are going to effect the course of a person's life, no matter their gender.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Women are the only gender physically effected by carrying the pregnancy, but obviously, the emotional and financial impacts of having a child are going to direct the course of the fathers life

And it won’t effect the mother’s life?

Again - mothers take on all the risks and responsibilities that a father does PLUS the medical ones. Therefore the only person who should have a say in if someone gets an abortion is the one whose carrying the foetus.

 

[Voidwalkin]

And it won’t effect the mother’s life?

Again - mothers take on all the risks and responsibilities that a father does PLUS the medical ones. Therefore the only person who should have a say in if someone gets an abortion is the one whose carrying the foetus.

Of course it will effect the mother's life.

Nowhere did I say that the woman shouldn't ultimately have the decision. What I did say was that it's just simply wrong to claim that only women will be impacted by being forced to have an unwanted child. This is pretty obviously true?

 

[Narz]

Mothers take on all the risks and responsibilities that fathers take (financial, social ect) PLUS a whole host of medical risks that the fathers don't have to take.

Or course, and it also affects fathers.

 

[Narz]

It's good someone pointed this out.

It's just simply wrong to say it only effects half the population.

Women are the only gender physically effected by carrying the pregnancy, but obviously, the emotional and financial impacts of having a child are going to direct the course of the fathers life. Post birth, the father may end up being the sole caregiver, for one reason or another. There are just so many ways hat becoming a parent(or having an additional child) are going to effect the course of a person's life, no matter their gender.

Right.

And as a male you have no choice in the matter so best to be very careful.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I read an article about anti-abortion people getting abortions. Apparently there has been cases where they would be handing anti-abortion literature to the other people waiting in the clinic.

My BS flag just pinged. This makes no sense.

It's good someone pointed this out.

It's just simply wrong to say it only effects half the population.

Women are the only gender physically effected by carrying the pregnancy, but obviously, the emotional and financial impacts of having a child are going to direct the course of the fathers life. Post birth, the father may end up being the sole caregiver, for one reason or another. There are just so many ways hat becoming a parent(or having an additional child) are going to effect the course of a person's life, no matter their gender.

Oh, horrors. The man might end up being the sole caregiver. What do you think it's been like for far too many billions of women during the course of the human race?

I can see this situation from more than just one side. My parents divorced when I was 8, and it was one of the best things that could have happened. My mother was a physically, emotionally, and verbally abusive person and I was so glad when the time came when I wouldn't need to be afraid of being smacked for some little thing that would set my mother off. Not that she let up on the emotional and verbal abuse, but at least that wasn't done with a ruler or flyswatter or whatever else she had at hand.

My dad got custody, and this was really unusual in the early 1970s. I will admit that for most of this time he wasn't the sole caregiver as we lived with his girlfriend who had 4 of her own kids, and after that situation ended we moved in with my grandparents. But there did come a time when my dad was the sole caregiver after I got too sick to look after myself. He did a damn good job of it, too, under the circumstances.

However, this does not change the fact that it's the women who take the risks with pregnancy. If men don't want any of the pregnancy-related risks to fall on them (financial, emotional, legal), there are a few things they can do:

1. Don't get into the situation in the first place. Nobody ever got a woman pregnant by abstention.

2. Birth control. There are multiple methods available. Pick one and use it responsibly.

3. There's a medical procedure that men can avail themselves of without too much fuss from the doctor or condescending lines like "I'm not going to do this operation because you might change your mind later."

Women hear #3 far too many times, even when we're 100% certain that we don't want kids, when there are excellent medical reasons not to have kids, when that operation could save us DECADES of misery and risk of even further illness/disease. It's one of the reasons I refuse to have a male doctor as my primary medical person. They're just SO SURE that I might want a kid, even when there are excellent medical reasons why it would be both difficult and risky even if I did want one.

And given the fact that I got berated by a fellow OT regular over #3 some years ago, him claiming that I basically cheated the world of my offspring (that person hasn't been around for a long time so I'm not referring to anyone currently active) has given me a bit of a short fuse in discussions like this.

 

[Narz]

If men don't want any of the pregnancy-related risks to fall on them (financial, emotional, legal), there are a few things they can do:

1. Don't get into the situation in the first place. Nobody ever got a woman pregnant by abstention.

2. Birth control. There are multiple methods available. Pick one and use it responsibly.

3. There's a medical procedure that men can avail themselves of without too much fuss from the doctor or condescending lines like "I'm not going to do this operation because you might change your mind later."

Yeah men are often quite lazy about birth control leaving it to the woman and are then surprised if the woman accidentally or deliberately messes it up.

Even then they might assume the woman will get an abortion but biological drive is strong (certainly influencing the 'forgetting' on both parties part) and once your DNA is out of your body it's out of your hands.

So yeah lads don't be lazy. Us humans come from a long line of sexually irresponsible f***ers.

No one asks to be born so try and be responsible cause it's alot harder when you're not prepared.

 

[Gorbles]

And as a male you have no choice in the matter so best to be very careful.

I can think of a pretty obvious choice we (or anyone in this position in the relationship) have, but I see that's already been covered a bit. So I'm glad this has been corrected already

 

[Lexicus]

Nowhere did I say that the woman shouldn't ultimately have the decision. What I did say was that it's just simply wrong to claim that only women will be impacted by being forced to have an unwanted child. This is pretty obviously true?

I think men are more sociopathic on average than you're accounting for. Many men do seem emotionally unaffected by this stuff or only care about it insofar as it affects their sex life.

 

[Narz]

I think men are more sociopathic on average than you're accounting for. Many men do seem emotionally unaffected by this stuff or only care about it insofar as it affects their sex life.

Daddy issues?

Men care about their kids as much as their moms.

Lot of societal crap about how men aren't as loving/attentive but I think that's primarily cultural.

If you're speaking about yourself then please don't have kids.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I think men are more sociopathic on average than you're accounting for. Many men do seem emotionally unaffected by this stuff or only care about it insofar as it affects their sex life.

It's not sociopathy but self control. As in, the emotions are there and they are just as strong but they are not as in control as with many women. So while we do feel all the same things they do we can also just tell our emotions to shut up and let us get on with our life doing what needs to be done. And we do it on a subconscious instinctual level so that at the end of the day it looks like we don't feel a thing when in reality we just know how to clench our teeth and get on with things. Especially if the end result is in our benefit.

This is something that is just biologically built into us as we men are intended by biology to be expendable seed carriers that take on all the dirty and dangerous jobs in society such as hunting mammoths or war. And in dangerous high intensity situations being controlled by emotions too much is what gets you and those around you killed.

The same pressures also create a natural culture where men are discouraged from showing emotions lest they appear weak and unreliable to those around them which in turn reinforces the behavior in a closed loop.

Now, admittedly all that is now mostly obsolete in the western world. But it's not like we can go back and undo tens of millennia of evolution by half a century of peace. Even if the bygenerational Franco-German deathmatch is a couple decades late.

 

[Narz]

The same pressures also create a natural culture where men are discouraged from showing emotions lest they appear weak and unreliable to those around them which in turn reinforces the behavior in a closed loop.

Reminds me of this meme I sent my gf the other day