Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

Just a quick Q. Does anyone think its possible to get North america to attempt to secede instead of the south?
See the War of 1812's Hartford Convention. The Federalists toyed with the idea, but there wasn't really much of a backing for it.
 
Shoot sorry forgot to qualify. I meant as an alternative to the south seceding in the ACW that time period etc etc. The Hartford Thing is a bit limited in my opinion and its been explored before.

It might require a POD further back I suppose
 
That might mean screwing with the nullification crisis, but I can't imagine why the North would want to secede from the Union after the failure of the 1812 war.
 
'Tis tricky, and probably requires a much weaker USA in general (a weaker North that can't overpower the South, and a weaker South that can't hold on to the North). Then a corrupt Southern-dominated USA could have a popular radical (far-left, possibly even socialist) rebellion in the industrial, but impoverished north.
 
Philadelphia Convention fails somehow and the Constitution is never ratified--United States continues operating under the Articles of Confederation. Far and away the easiest way to do it.
 
Yes, I know the beginning and end are very subpar (well some may argue the whole thing is subpar, but I generally ignore those people anyway) but oh well, I'm tired of confusing Italy.

The Sacred Bonds:
Chapter 4

Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3


Vitelleschi stepped off the ship with some relief. Though it didn’t fit with his crusading-hero persona, he got violently sick every time he stepped on a boat. Fortunately, he had commandeered the captain’s quarters for the voyage and had managed to discreetly take care of the products of his sickness. Also, using the excuse of poring over dispatches, he had managed to avoid most of his underlings, leaving them clueless about the humiliation he suffered on the short trip. Of course, it wasn’t entirely an excuse. Between bouts of the more paralyzing episodes, he managed to read a stack of dispatches addressed to him from Italy. The names read like a list of the most powerful men in Italy: Visconti, Eugene, Amadeus, de’ Medici, Foscari. All of them sought, no begged, Vitelleschi to fight for them. Land, titles, money, power. Anything and everything they could think of promising Vitelleschi, they promised, with more rewards besides, if he would only fight for them. Vitellseschi smiled, a cold smile that those around him knew signaled someone would soon die.



It had been late in 1441 when Vitelleschi had left Italy to fight in the crusades, and now, July 1444, he had returned. While he was gone, Italy had immersed itself in one of those confusing wars full of betrayals and personal vendettas, that always seemed to crop up in Italy.

The seeds of this particular war had been sown in 1433 as the last major Italian war ended. In that war, Milan, Genoa, and Savory had fought a draw with the Florence-Venice alliance. Draws in war, however, are rarely satisfactory for any side, which usually means that a new war would eventually start.

In the meantime, however, the political landscape had changed drastically. When the Council of Basel moved to Florence, and then managed to secure a union with the Greek Church, it brought immense prestige to Florence, prestige that was only reinforced by the decision of the local Council of Italy to hold their own meeting in Florence. Despite the fact that when the council was still at Basel, Florence supported the pope, Florence soon opportunistically became closely aligned with the counciliarism movement. A further ally to this movement was Venice, who saw the counciliarism movement as a way to gain further influence in the east.

Opposing this power bloc originally was just Pope Eugene IV. However, as Venice and Florence increasingly became tied to the councils, the Pope soon found allies who, though they didn’t care about the council, didn’t want to see Florence and Venice become any stronger. Foremost among these was the ironic alliance with Milan, who had previously financed the conquest of the Papal States on behalf of the Council when it still met at Basel. Also notable was the strengthening of ties with Genoa, the traditional rivals of Venice.

In 1442, as the counciliarism party and Venice were distracted by the crusade against the Turks, the Pope made his move, hiring the condottieri Francesco Sforza. Rather than attack Florence directly, Sforza instead sought to capture as many prelates as possible as they returned from sitting on that year’s Council of Italy. Florence’s guarantee of safety thus broken, Florence was forced to declare war on the Papal States, invading it in March 1442 under Niccolò III d'Este in order to free the captured prelates. Immediately, Milan declared war on Florence for its “aggressive acts,” and dispatched its own army, under Niccolò Piccinino, invading Florence from the north. Venice rounded out the major combatants by fielding its own army, which was, heavily subsidized by both the Council and Florence, in support of Florence commanded by Erasmo “Gattamelata.”[1]

With the entrance of Venice into the war, Piccinino was forced to give up on his invasion of Florence, turning north to meet Gattamelata. Meanwhile, with the northern front of Florence semi-stable, d'Este continued his own planned invasion of the Papal Marches. This provoked from the pope a declaration of excommunication for the entirety of Florence and any person in any army under their pay. Florence, of course, ignored the excommunication and easily persuaded the free remnants of the Council of Italy to excommunicate the pope and his troops. Meanwhile, uncaring of the flood of excommunications that had been unleashed, d’Este continued his assault. Because the Papal Marche were of unstable loyalty, even at the best of times, d'Este forced the surrender of several garrisons before Sforza arrived with his own army. What followed was one of those complicated wars of maneuvers and bluffs that characterized Italian wars of the time, as both sides refused to attack unless certain of their own victory. This meant that many small towns and cities often changed hands as each sought to provoke the other into an ill-advised attack.

The situation changed, however, when d’Este fell deathly ill. With his army suffering under a lack of unified leadership, Sforza outmaneuvered, them, attaining the classical condottieri goal of forcing the enemy to either surrender or attack your fortified army. d’Este’s army, as with most condottieri armies, decided they would rather surrender than do a suicidal assault. Shortly after his army surrendered, d’Este’s himself died of the disease that had been afflicting him. Instead of pressing the attack into Florence, however, Sforza decided that the present time would be a good time to establish his own authority in the power vacuum of the Marche, and so, disregarding the will of his employer, settled down to conquering that region, while simultaneously sending letters to Rome telling them that he was busy stomping out the rest of d’Este’s army.

As this was going on, Piccinino and Gattamelata were playing their own deadly cat-and-mouse game.[2] Their stage consisted of the contested land of Lombardy that lay between Milan and Venice, which had sparked three previous wars. Though a ripe seventy-two years old, Gattamelata still retained all of the sharpness of youth and was widely considered to have forgotten more about military affairs than most condottieri ever knew. However, though Gattamelata derided his opponent as “that boy” the fifty-six year old Piccinino was a worthy foe, having a string of successes to his credit.

The campaign opened with a quick strike by Piccinino, who, at least compared to other condottieri, was an extraordinarily rash man. This rapid advance caught Gattamelata cat-napping[3], and Gattamelata was forced to fall back after a sharp engagement. Piccinino then assaulted the heavily fortified city of Bergamo and managed to take it, though with relatively heavy losses. Meanwhile, Gattamelata had used the time gained by Piccinino’s assault at Bergamo to regroup his forces. As Piccinino once again moved in a brave movement that bordered on foolishness, Gattamelata was ready, drawing Piccinino and his army further into Venice controlled Lombardy before springing his trap. Smaller armies that Piccinino hadn’t noticed because of his rush came in from the sides, cutting Piccinino’s supply lines, leaving him stranded from his base. Piccinino immediately recognized the danger and moved back onto Bergamo, but was too late as Gattamelata’s subordinate armies had just expelled the garrison Piccinino had left behind.

Fortunately for Piccinino, he was saved by the greed that thrived amongst the condottieri ranks. Though he had Piccinino surrounded, Gattamelata refused to move in for the kill until Venice paid him a “victory bonus” and schedule a triumph for him. As Gattamelata was negotiating, Piccinino saw his chance, and effected a daring breakout. Though caught completely of guard by what Gattamelata saw as an extremely foolhardy move, he reacted quickly, and as a result managed to capture a large percentage of Piccinino’s army, which had surrendered at the first sight of trouble. Returning to Milan, Piccinino wisely avoided the enraged Duke Visconti, deciding it would be safer to flee the city.

With his general fleeing his wrath and most of his hired army captured, Visconti decided to put out feelers to see whether peace would be less expensive then hiring another army. At this peace suggestion both Florence and Venice appeared willing, Florence because it faced the same situation as Milan, and Venice because Gattamelata had apparently decided that any larger victory for Venice would cost them more than they were willing to pay. The only two groups that were unhappy with this peace were the Council of Italy and the Pope. Unfortunately for those two groups, they were the once with the least amount of influence over the outcome of the war. Florence and Venice agreed to sign peace with Milan in exchange for the return of the captured prelates that began the war. This Sforza agreed to, in return for tacit acknowledgement by those powers of his “kingdom” he had carved out of the Papal Marches. Thus, the Council and the Pope were the only ones left at war with each other, if one could call their state “war.” The Council by this time, between contributing to the still ongoing crusade and their previous support for this war had nearly run out of funds, while the Pope, with Sforza’s insubordination, lacked an army. Even if he had felt like hiring another army, the Pope was smart enough to realize that he could not take on the Florence-Venice-Council alliance by himself.

Thus, 1443 passed in an uneasy peace in Italy. The Council received some support from the wider Church in their struggle. In particular France, a hotbed for reformers, made noise about intervening, though the King was too preoccupied with England to actually do anything beside threaten. A more likely action was the call by many to hold the ecumenical council earlier than the agreed upon 1450 in order to deal with the “rogue bishop.” Eventually, however, politics, along with global realities, derailed that suggestion. Still, the Council did receive some “donations” from other councils as well as from a couple of the temporal powers, who, while not wanting to get involved, didn’t particularly want to see a strong pope either. Meanwhile the Pope continued trying his best to undermine the counciliarism movement and win allies. To this end, he reluctantly made Sforza governor of the Papal Marches, under the Papal authority, at least in theory, hoping thereby to bind Sforza to him.

Of course, the entrance of Vitelleschi created a bidding war as everyone sought to win him to their side. The Council held out hope that Vitelleschi would remember that he had been sponsored by the Council during the crusades, and feel some loyalty for that. The Pope, meanwhile, hoped that Vitelleschi would feel some old loyalty from the time when Vitelleschi commanded the papal troops and reconquered Rome on his behalf. The various temporal powers, meanwhile, each hoped that the promise of riches could prove stronger than whatever dubious bonds of loyalty might exist.

At first, Vitelleschi ignored all the various pleas, instead advancing on the Ferrara. Now d’Este, who had died in battle a few years earlier, had been Marquis of Ferrara. After his death, his illegitimate son, Leonello took command. At this time Ferrara appeared a tempting target, being rich as well as only loosely aligned with the more powerful Italian powers. Upon arriving in Italy, Vitelleschi had decided that another son, Ercole, who was the legitimate son of d’Este and his third wife Ricciarda da Saluzzo, would make a better Marquis, mainly because at a mere thirteen years, Vitelleschi could manipulate Ercole. Easily pushing aside resistance, Vitelleschi put the young d’Este on the throne, killing his older half-brother. Venice, the power with the most interest in the area, rushed to recognize Ercole, hoping through that favor that Vitelleschi would be more inclined to their cause.

Vitelleschi, however, had other plans. At the request of Vitelleschi, Pope Eugene called a Council at Ferrara. Now Eugene thought that this request signaled Vitelleschi’s intent to work with him, so he was happy to call his supporters together, joining the Council of Ferrara 15 September 1444. Vitelleschi, however, had more diabolical plans. When the pope arrived at Ferrara, Vitelleschi had him imprisoned, forcing Eugene to sign a letter of abdication. He then had the council that was then meeting at Ferrara to elect him pope, using a combination of bribery and intimidation to get them to accede to the demand, taking on the papal name Urban VII in honor of the first crusading pope.

The Council of Italy, of course, did not like this one bit. Though their enemy Pope Eugene had been eliminated, he had been replaced with a more formidable foe. Pope Urban not only had access to the riches of Ferrara and the Papal States, but he was also at the head of an extremely loyal and battle-hardened company of soldiers and had won renown throughout Christendom in the crusade. Perhaps the worst trait, however, was the pure unbridled ambition that Urban had displayed and continued to display.

Thus, the Council moved quickly against Urban’s actions. Though, for political reasons, the Council found it convenient to accept Eugene’s resignation as valid, the Council declared that Urban’s council did not have the authority to elect a pope, and called for its own meeting of cardinals in order to elect a rival pope. When this meeting adjourned, it elected Cardinal Cesarini to be pope. Cardinal Cesarini had previously successfully led the Council of Basel as president, and had some fame as a crusader himself, having taken part in both the Hussite Crusades and as part of a church legate attached to Hunyadi’s army in the Turkish Crusade. Caught up in the middle of the rivalry between Hunyadi and the then Vitelleschi, he took Hunyadi’s side, earning the enmity of Vitelleschi. At his election, Cesarini took on the papal name of Callixtus III. With the election of Callixtus III, the church’s situation was as confused as it had been during the Great Schism. Now, not only were there two popes, but also two councils, both of which who saw the other as invalid. To make matters worse, of course, was the obligatory decrees of excommunication that each sent against the other.

While the pro-council cardinals were meeting to elect their own pope, Urban had been moving to consolidate his own position. Leaving his nephew Bartolomeo to oversee Ferrara, Urban moved south with his main army. After some negotiations, Urban recognized Sforza’s position in the Papal Marches, and continued south. Entering Rome was greeted enthusiastically by a Roman populace who had previously named Urban “tertius pater patriae post Romulum”[4]. Of course, most of that so-called enthusiasm stemmed from remembering Urban’s brutality last time he was in Rome, and sure enough, Urban embarked upon a small reign of terror on those who he deemed not to have greeted his entrance with the required amount of enthusiasm.

With his main base secure, Urban decided to move against the Council before it could fully gather their allies. Thus, in the spring of 1445, Urban declared that the nobles of Siena were allowed to return. Now Siena had been the traditional rival of Florence and had briefly been ruled by Visconti of Milan. However, a rebellion drove Visconti out and a republic was established. This new republic had then allied itself with Florence. Using the excuse of returning the exiled pro-Milanese nobles, Urban attacked Siena with his army, after a brief siege, some of his partisans opened the gates of the city, allowing Urban’s army to enter the city. What followed was the predictable purge of republican elements as the newly reinstated nobles pledged their support to Urban. At news of this, Florence naturally declared war on Siena, triggering a host of other declarations of war. By the end, Urban was joined by Siena, Ferrara, and Milan against Florence and Venice.

The newly widened war started with an invasion of Siena by Florence under the command of Piccinino, who had eventually ended up in Florence after fleeing the wrath of Milan. Meanwhile, Venice hired Borso d’Este, another illegitimate son of the elder d’Este[5] sending him with an army down to attack Ferrara. They also hired the elderly Gattamelata to again face Milan. The major players on Urban’s side was himself, facing Piccinino, Sforza, who moved to reinforce Bartolomeo in Ferrara, and Gianfrancesco Gonzaga commanding the Milan armies facing Venice.

Since Piccinino was reluctant to press the attack against Urban, because of the latter’s reputation, the first battles of the war occurred in Ferrara. Left with insufficient men, Bartolomeo made a brief, but futile resistance, escaping the siege of Ferrara at night, with the young Ercole posing as his daughter to avoid suspicion. Elsewhere, things were not going as well for Venice. Though victorious in the Battle of Caravaggio, the ancient Gattamelata succumbed to the weakness of old age, dying soon afterwards. This allowed Gonzaga to reform his defeated troops and launch another invasion of Venice, though this one soon stalled at the Adige River. By fall, things deteriorated even further for the anti-Urban alliance. Sforza finally met up with Bartolomeo and Ercole and together they invaded Ferrara, catching Borso in the city and besieging him. Faced with no immediate hope of relief and without enough supplies to last through winter, Borso surrendered after a two week siege. Elsewhere, Urban, had beaten back the cautious probes by Piccinino and was starting to go on the offensive himself. Piccinino managed to temporarily check him at Volterra, but the situation looked grim for him as each side went into winter quarters.

The counciliarism party received good news over the winter, however. When the war first started, they sent emissaries to the east, to see if they could raise support in their anti-pope efforts. In response to this, the Romans sent a small detachment under Graitzas Palaiologos, who had won some renown for his fighting in the recent crusade. This detachment was bolstered by some funds sent by Hunyadi, sent due to his absolute disgust at Urban stemming from their vicious arguments during the crusade.

Despite these additions, the counciliarism alliance was still on shaky ground. Though one of the best condottieri in Italy, Piccinino was continually forced back by the equally brilliant Urban, who had the advantage of better and more loyal troops. The arrival of the Romans managed to prevent Sforza from advancing past Ferrara, though it was taking all of the reinforcements to hold Sforza back. The only place where the counciliarism party was facing any real success was against Gonzaga on the border, where he was forced to withdraw from Venice Lombardy into Milan.

In April 23, 1446, however, occurred one of those queer events that people would swear was entirely made up if they didn’t realize it was real history. At the time, Urban was slightly north of the city of Volterra, which he had finally captured the week before. As he was alone in his tent at night, poring some maps, a servant girl came in, carrying some wine for him. Now for some reason, something the girl did made Urban suspicious, and he called out for his guards, claiming that the girl was trying to poison him. Now it just so happened, that the girl actually was trying to poison him, and that one of the two guards stationed outside Urban’s tent was part of the plan. When that guard entered and saw the plan unravel, he panicked. So, as Urban was shaking the terrified girl, the soldier took his sword and rammed it, piercing not only Urban, but also the girl. While the other guard stood in disbelief, the murder fled from the tent, covered in Urban’s blood.

With Urban dead, the war wound down. Urban’s army, leaderless, lashed out at Piccinino, however Piccinino was able to outmaneuver them, decisively crushing them in battle. The still dangerous Sforza was secretly given a choice, either keep his lands he won in the Papal Marches, or Venice would support his claim, through marriage, on the Duchy of Milan when the elderly Duke died. Sforza decided that Milan would make a better duchy than the troublesome Marches, so he allowed himself to be bought off with some gold as well as promises. Meanwhile at Urban’s death, Milan decided it didn’t want to fight alone, so it agreed to pre-border peace. Borso, who had been held prisoner by Sforza, was released and made Duke of Ferrara, while the former Pope Eugene, who had also been held prisoner by Sforza was sold by Sforza to the counciliarism party, who immediately sent him to a secluded hermitage where he died soon afterwards.

The last loose end was the papal states. Even though the new Pope Callixtus was a firm supporter of the counciliarism party, no one wanted to risk a new pope using their temporal authority to enforce his spiritual authority, least off all Callixtus. So, he voluntarily offered to give over the Papal States to a member of nobility. Everyone agreed that none of the traditional powers could take it. That, after all, would spark a new round of war. A Roman Republic was also out of the question. It was, after some discussion, finally decided to give the Papal States to the Roman Empire under the newly declared Despot Graitzas. By doing this, the counciliarism party hoped to tie the Roman Empire even more firmly to their cause, believing that he would prove to be a more stable ally than any of the Italian States while at the same time not being so strong that he would upset the delicate balance of power in Italy.


[1] The Honeyed Cat
[2] Bad Pun intended
[3] I know, I know, but for some reason I just can’t resist the cat puns today.
[4] “Third Father of his Country since Romulus.”
[5] For those interested, the elder d’Este had eleven known illegitimate children.
 
Quick question, has anyone ever read the Peshawar Lancers? It's an alternate history book written by S.M. Stirling and it has a pretty fascinating (though definitely within Symphony criticism range ;) ) background. Here is the little two paragraph thing from the back of the book (there is more background at the end of the book itself):

In the mid 1870s, a violent spray of comets hit Earth, decimating cities, erasing shorelines, and changing the world's climate forever. And just as Earth's temperature dropped, so was civilization frozen in time. Instead of advancing technologically, humanity had to piece itself back together...

In the twenty-first century, boats still run on steam, messages arrive by telegraph, and the British Empire, with its capital now in Delhi, controls much of the world. The other major world leader is the Czar of All the Russias. Everyone predicts an eventual, deadly showdown. But no one can predict the role that one man, Captain Athelstane King, reluctant spy and hero, will play...
 
Well, aside from that whole "comets hitting the Earth" thing, it looks interesting.

But don't you think a lot of history is pretty implausible? Such as:

-Napoleon just defeats half of Europe.
-Bismarck is fired.
-Napoleon is defeated at Waterloo.
-Some random guy takes control of Germany and plunges it into war.
 
Somethings that happened in History are really odd. Probably has to do with a time machine or something.
 
Well, aside from that whole "comets hitting the Earth" thing, it looks interesting.

But don't you think a lot of history is pretty implausible? Such as:

-Napoleon just defeats half of Europe.
With more mobilisable soldiers and resources than any two of his opponents put together, augmented by an impressive new army structure and powerful ideology?
-Bismarck is fired.
Fired for being too good, trying to dominate the Tsar and being a threat? How is that unlikly?
-Napoleon is defeated at Waterloo.
Doesn't seem that unlikly - he was outnumbered lacked terrain advantages whilst having a unifed and possibly better trained force - could go either way.
-Some random guy takes control of Germany and plunges it into war.
A populist authoritarian ideolog like hitler was hardly unlikely given the weimer republic and the socioeconomic conditions - the recklessness of hitler was a bit shocking I'd abmit ;)
 
The idea that the Europeans would have been able to maintain control of their colonies after something like that is laughable.
 
excommunicate the pope and his troops

Could they do that?

Anyway, some nice Italian warring.

-Napoleon just defeats half of Europe.

Besides, that was a wussy kind of "defeat". Couldn't even dismember Prussia properly, bah.

the recklessness of hitler was a bit shocking I'd abmit

Still, what choice did he have? Germany was already set back considerably and insanely reckless actions were needed if it were to

Agree on the other points, ofcourse. Our history only seems implausible at the second glance; once you gain an understanding of how things really work it all begins to make some kind of sense. Sudden deaths are the most tricky bits, but the examples you brought up are very easy.

Somethings that happened in History are really odd. Probably has to do with a time machine or something.

Just thought I'd mention that Kaiser Franz Ferdinand, President John F. Kennedy and Supreme Overlord Mahatma Gandhi must've pissed off a real lot of people in their respective original timelines. ;)

Peshawar Lancers

Is that the one with the Chernobog cult? Surreal.
 
Just thought I'd mention that Kaiser Franz Ferdinand, President John F. Kennedy and Supreme Overlord Mahatma Gandhi must've pissed off a real lot of people in their respective original timelines. ;)

I was on the grassy knoll in Dallas.

Back on topic. Can someone tell me something important that happened in Africa in the mid 1990's?
 
The Congo War, probably.
 
Could they do that?

Anyway, some nice Italian warring.

Councils had, in the past, the power of declaring anathemas, which is kind of like excommunication. I would have to check to make sure, because I can't say absolutely off the top of my head, but I think some local councils exercised a similar prerogative for local "heretics."
 
The idea that the Europeans would have been able to maintain control of their colonies after something like that is laughable.

The idea that you can dismiss every idea the book brings up without actually reading the ideas OR the book is laughable :p
 
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