Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

[Israelite9191]

What makes one city important and another city not important?

If it generates more income, has cultural importance, etc. London and Tel Aviv are both economic centres, but London is definately a lot more important than Tel Aviv. Similar, TTL Malacca and Buda are both economic centres, but Malacca is far more important in terms of economics than Buda.

Under what set of physical parameters does a greater quantity placed into a smaller area lead to less density?[/quality]
It isn't a matter of population in the city, it's a matter of economic importance. St. Louis, Missouri may have almost twice as many people in its urban area as Zurich does, but Zurich is far more important economically.

I also redirect back to alex's request for a definition of "important."

Addressed above.

To an absolute standard, a small Chinese city would outshine even the grandest European equivalent. If this is being judged subjectively in context, what criteria are being used?

Standard of living and economic import are two different things. The European economy is more concentrated in its cities than China's, and thus have more economic import. That doesn't necessarily mean China's cities aren't larger in population. This is comparable to modern China's numerous extremely large cities that, while having extraordinary population figures, do not have the same economic impact that smaller cities like Zurich, Vancouver, and New Orleans.

I believe I have somewhat settled on a new balance. I have taken out some of the less important European eco centres (York, Cork, Belgrade, Palermo, Valencia, Thesaloniki, Dijon), kept India basically the same, and moved around a few of the Chinese cities. I still have to do more research on the Chinese cities before I settle, so expect a (semi-)finished version tomorrow or the day after.

 

[Symphony D.]

It isn't a matter of population in the city, it's a matter of economic importance. St. Louis, Missouri may have almost twice as many people in its urban area as Zurich does, but Zurich is far more important economically.

But again, there are vastly more cities, operating in a vastly more connected trade network. It doesn't matter if any given individual given one is less important because there are so many more of them that this will, at the very least, balance out evenly, if not in China's favor.

This is comparable to modern China's numerous extremely large cities that, while having extraordinary population figures, do not have the same economic impact that smaller cities like Zurich, Vancouver, and New Orleans.

I think that's a false statement given the industrial output of a large number of these places and the number of people serviced. Certainly cities like Shanghai, Hong Kong, Beijing, Fushun, Mukden, Tsingtao, and so on easily outweigh all those you just listed in industry, commerce, and shipping, to varying degrees.

That's also a thoroughly modern, global perspective. In this era, trade and revenue on the city level is driven by two things: how many people can be gathered in an area and taxed, and how much goods throughput can be attained and taxed. People will additionally go to where goods are available, and the flow of goods is assisted by superior infrastructure. In all these categories, China beats Europe hands down, even at this period of time.

A given city in Europe which has high commercial throughput to the local standard might possess greater relative importance in its region than a similar city in China, but that does not diminish the fact that the Chinese city is equal or that there vastly more of them. In such a circumstance to give status to the European city but not to its Chinese equal is preferential and subjective handling of the issue. Given this, and China's greater number and higher quality cities, evaluated on an absolute scale of importance, China will have vastly more centers than any given collection of European countries.

 

[das]

Whilst I was doing the alt-hist challenge I got distracted and did a map for another alt-history instead

Nice map, though some things are really weird. Care to point out the year? Because I am very confused.

Israelite9191, nice to have you back. And before you ask, I utterly agree with what NK and Disenfrancised said about the Amerindian civilisations and exploration.

I am also even more skeptical than before about the special cities system as such (all the cities worth the name were "special"), but that's as may be.

With regards to the timeline format, I think that the special colour text is no longer needed; from what I recall, at least some of those were really old changes, and nobody really remembers the old version in that much detail anyway. By now it's more disconcerting than anything else.

Can't really come up with anything in particular to criticise, but might find something later. Until then, I must admit that that is a great map. If alex994 doesn't take it, I express interest in China the Much-Discussed.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Nice map, though some things are really weird. Care to point out the year? Because I am very confused.

I'm glad someone noticed . The year is 1870 or so, though its been a while since the PoD. Whats weird about it ? Although there has been significant butterflies and just having stuff happen, the root of most of the chnages is still on the map.

 

[das]

If I had to single out any one weird part, it would have to be the trans-Saharan super-empire. I assume that technology is somewhat different from OTL?

 

[Disenfrancised]

If I had to single out any one weird part, it would have to be the trans-Saharan super-empire. I assume that technology is somewhat different from OTL?

The sahara is empty still, its just since the various wandering do acknowledge the Calph I deemed it better to colour it all (unlike NA where tribes actively dispute the colonists). Traders and missionaries working up from nigeria port cities and down from the magreb were followed by military power projections (outside the forests at least) once technology got to about 18th century level.

There is a axis of development along the sahal similar to the OTL French investments in the 1900s, and when they went after the Sudan from the sahal there was no one to stand in the way, and they pushed on to trading forts that had been established on the Somali coast...backfilling essentialy, as the periphery of the Maghreb Caliphate (Maghreb as in 'Western' not the OTL area) was established first, as traders and slavers followed the european circumnavigations.

Technology is quite different yes, but not 'make the desert bloom' or 'magic sand cars' different .

 

[alex994]

Who am I to deny das China? I've rather enjoyed you being China in that one nes whose name I cannot remember You have my blessings das, and the credit I gained by making provincial borders

 

[Swissempire]

Issy, why are you removing the Cork EC? In a timeline with interdependent Celtic powers colonizing and trading amongst one another, Cork would be extremely strong economically. Cork Harbor is one of the largest natural harbors in the world, and Cork is situated in an analogous, perhaps even better situation than London or Boston.

Basically, if the English hadn't screwed us over out of jealousy and racism, we'd have been golden.

But I must protest the exclusion of Cork as an EC/Special City

 

[Israelite9191]

Israelite9191, nice to have you back.

Thank you. It's nice to be back.

And before you ask, I utterly agree with what NK and Disenfrancised said about the Amerindian civilisations and exploration.

Well, we'll just have to see how things go.

I am also even more skeptical than before about the special cities system as such (all the cities worth the name were "special"), but that's as may be.

I'm plannin to use them slightly differently than has been done in the past. Mainly, they will be less standardised and less essential. I want them to play a role somewhere between the original inspirations, StKNES 5's special cities and ITNES' eco centres.

With regards to the timeline format, I think that the special colour text is no longer needed; from what I recall, at least some of those were really old changes, and nobody really remembers the old version in that much detail anyway. By now it's more disconcerting than anything else.

You're probably right. If I end up going back and changing anything, I'll change that.

Can't really come up with anything in particular to criticise, but might find something later.

I was kind of looking forward to reading your critiques, they're always so interesting. Oh well, c'est la vie.

Until then, I must admit that that is a great map.

Thanks! The map probably took as much time as writing the timeline. I tend to be obessive compulsive about aesthetics in my maps.

If alex994 doesn't take it, I express interest in China the Much-Discussed.

Very good.

Who am I to deny das China? I've rather enjoyed you being China in that one nes whose name I cannot remember You have my blessings das, and the credit I gained by making provincial borders

Is there anything else you'd want? You could be Ayutthaya again.


Anyway, here is the (I hope) finished eco centre map. As I mentioned, I eleiminated a number of lesser European centres. I also finalised my decision not to tamper with India. As for China, after doing research, eliminating the weaker options, and adding more appropriate ones, I have ended up with the exact same number of eco centres as previously. My choices for China were based primarily on this map of the Ming dynasty under the Yongle emperor and this map of the 16th Century Japanese raids.

Spoiler Map :

 

[Israelite9191]

Sorry for the double post.

Issy, why are you removing the Cork EC? In a timeline with interdependent Celtic powers colonizing and trading amongst one another, Cork would be extremely strong economically. Cork Harbor is one of the largest natural harbors in the world, and Cork is situated in an analogous, perhaps even better situation than London or Boston.

Basically, if the English hadn't screwed us over out of jealousy and racism, we'd have been golden.

But I must protest the exclusion of Cork as an EC/Special City

Give it time. The Celtic colonies aren't extraordinarily productive as of yet, but once the fur trade picks up, the colonies build up a larger population of consumers, and more economic development takes place in the colonies and the Celtic homelands, it will easiliy become an eco centre.

 

[Swissempire]

Great Map Issy, but I really must protest the removal of Cork as an EC. According to the timeline, it is the depature point for the Columbian expeditions, it is the capital of a well connected Celtic nation, the FitzGeralds and the Parliment would have brought economic advancement to it by way of them making it their center of operations, in addition to the arguements I presented above. EDIT: I didn't see your post above, so thanks for the explaination

Also, shouldn't Kildare be a religious center? Its basically an Avignon/Canterbury type deal, correct?

And just for my personal clarification, could you tell me how exactly Celtic Reformed Catholicism works? They're like Pope following Protestants?

 

[alex994]

Is there anything else you'd want? You could be Ayutthaya again.

While my last Ayutthaya was undoubtedly great, das is after all China Not wise at all....

And I think the lack of an EC in the Shanxi (yes, the one with only 1 a) region of China is rather... well, lacking; the province was after all the premier banking center of China for centuries with their "greatness" only ending with the Qing Dynasty. The people of Shanxi are nicknamed "The Jews of China," at least that's the impression I got from the people there when I went there last Spring Break.

 

[Israelite9191]

While my last Ayutthaya was undoubtedly great, das is after all China Not wise at all....

And I think the lack of an EC in the Shanxi (yes, the one with only 1 a) region of China is rather... well, lacking; the province was after all the premier banking center of China for centuries with their "greatness" only ending with the Qing Dynasty. The people of Shanxi are nicknamed "The Jews of China," at least that's the impression I got from the people there when I went there last Spring Break.

I'll add Taiyuan. I was sort of on the fence about whether or not to add it.

 

[Israelite9191]

I have a question for all of you. At this point in history, do you think Dijon or Lyons is more deserving of being an eco centre?

 

[North King]

I have a question for all of you. At this point in history, do you think Dijon or Lyons is more deserving of being an eco centre?

Lyons was larger and was better connected.

 

[das]

Definitely Lyons. Even at its peak Dijon doesn't quite measure up in the terms of actual economic significance.

 

[Dachs]

I have a question for all of you. At this point in history, do you think Dijon or Lyons is more deserving of being an eco centre?

The latter. Jewel of the Rhone and all that. Plus, it's a prime spot to print witch-hunting manifestos.

 

[Kal'thzar]

Finally finished your timeline Israelite, very nice.

Although I'm wondering what the more 'Inglis' Scotlands dynamics are with the other Celtic nations (As you said the irish Anglo Lords have been assimilated, but the Welsh are probably have a significant 'Inglis' or anglo presence there as well. Brittany totally unsure about ) What specifically intrests me is the King of Scotlands support of the richer Inglis over the Gaelic clans, how is this viewed by the other (celtic) Kingdoms (whom I presume are undergoing a 'celtic cultural revival').

Oh, and does Scotland Control Berwick upon Tweed?

 

[Terrance888]

Nice! I like it. I already have my First Alt History. I just need an editor and boom! A good Mod can take it farther than EQ's

Here it is

Spoiler :

Nice everybody! I would like a senerio where the Soviets conquered all of Italy, Germany, Korea, and Japan before the Allies stopped them. Then the Soviets 'Liberated' France and Invaded Britian. Britian Survived the the France, Itally, Switerland, and numerous small states are all 'Zombie' statalites of the Soviet Union. Soviet Union shall later Conquer the Mideast and create the 'Commulist Caliph.' Which controll spreads to nearly all of mainland Euroasia and others. USSR shall be regular size, But the members of the Commulist Brothers Pact (CBP) are much more than the Warsaw pact. And the French and Germans are pressganged to build a industry force comparable to the U.S.

South America is United by the U.C.A. (United Countries of Amerigo/Bolivar) and the north is controlled by the U.S.N.A (United States and Countries of America.) In Africa, Colonies are kept as native clenched the colonizers against the Nukes. And all of the African Colonies and Countries are under the UCCP (United Capitalist Countries Pact.) This game will have

2 Major Nations (USNA, USSR)
3 Regional Powers (Britain, South Africa. Egypt.)
And many 'Colonies' (playable.)
And Pact members.

History in a clinch

Spoiler :

The Beginning 1940-1950
The Soviets didn't listen to the Allies
They conquered Japan.
They Conquered Germany.
They 'Liberated' France.
Attack on Britain Fails.
Test the first Nuke on Tehran and conquered Iran.


Rise of the USNA and the UBSA
The United States and Nations of America
The United Bolivar States of Amerigo
As the British delt with the soviets. The South Americans Unified into an
single Nation. They shall be the only major power not to colonize aftica.
Canada and Mexico Joined as Nations into the new United States and Nations of America.
America Colonizes the former French Colonies seeking help from Nuclear tests.


1950-1970
Rise of the Soviet
The Soviet Brotherhood Pact Covers all Continental Eurasia.
The Commulist Islamic Caliph was formed in the Middle east, 'communityism' seems to be already practiced by the mosques.
All rements of India and others are Communisized.
French and Germen engineers were press ganged into the soviet industry to reinnovate all of Old Russia.

Last Hope for Europe
Britain Survives and joins the Capitalist Countries Confederation. Which includes all countries not in the Soviet Brotherhood Pact.
The African Members are nothing more than protectorates, but as promised no nuke testing occured there.

The year is 1979. The world is divided into two. All fractions are in an alliance. And a cold war that may never end has officially begun.

 

[Israelite9191]

Thank you all. I was leaning towards Lyon, but my instinct was to ask you all before settling on it.

Finally finished your timeline Israelite, very nice.

Thank you.

Although I'm wondering what the more 'Inglis' Scotlands dynamics are with the other Celtic nations (As you said the irish Anglo Lords have been assimilated, but the Welsh are probably have a significant 'Inglis' or anglo presence there as well. Brittany totally unsure about ) What specifically intrests me is the King of Scotlands support of the richer Inglis over the Gaelic clans, how is this viewed by the other (celtic) Kingdoms (whom I presume are undergoing a 'celtic cultural revival').

There's been a general anti-English (and anti-French in Brittany) movement throughout the Celtic Nations for a while now. Even though Ireland has the most reason for anti-English sentiment, their relatively intact identity and general lack of English influence as compared to the other Celtic nations means that they are not the most anti-English. That title would go to Wales. There, the English influences have in general been driven out with torches and pitchforks and the process of Celtification undertaken most strongly (particularly with the Celtic intellectual circles centred in the University of St David's). In Brittany, the hostility towards the French and their influences is not nearly as strong as the anti-English sentiment found in the British Isles. The Celtic clutural resurgence has, however, benn quite effective in removing the French language and re-alligning social and cultural patterns, in particular religious ones, with other Celtic nations. Within Scotland, the Celtic Reformation and the associate pseudo-nationalism has lead to a general Gaelicisation of the Lowland Scots. Admittedly, this has not gone as far in Scotland as it has in Ireland or Wales, or even Brittany, but the effect is still very noticable. However, this is emering as one argument in favour of Ireland as the new leader of the Celtic Reformed bloc.[/quote]

Oh, and does Scotland Control Berwick upon Tweed?

As a matter of fact, yes, Scotland does control Berwick-upon-Tweed.