Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

[Demetrias]

The Mongol weren't muslim to begin with so you might get an anti-muslim reaction from the Mongols of the Golden Horde in which they turn Christian which would be really interesting. Christian Mongols lording it over Muslim slavs.

 

[das]

Except that it didn't happen in the Middle East despite talks of closer alliance between crusaders and Mongols (something rather unlikely to occur in Muslim Rus) and there is no reason for it to happen here either.

 

[silver 2039]

http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/japanese_empire/altjap/history.htm

This is an awesome althistory. Starting in 1983 or something would be intreasting.

 

[Demetrias]

Well it didn't happen in the Middle East because they didn't send missionaries to the Mongols in Iran. Also the Crusader States had already been driven back into the Sea so it was impossible to get effective communication and co-ordination between the two groups. But you yourself preposed a stronger teutonic kingdom in Russia that would be a great place to launch Missionary efforts. Also with so much of the world over run my Muslims the Pope would have to look every where for allies and would respond more favorably to the efforts of Kublai Khan to get christian missionaries.

 

[Symphony D.]

This is an awesome althistory. Starting in 1983 or something would be intreasting.

That stupid thing again?

 

[Azale]

http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/japanese_empire/altjap/history.htm

This is an awesome althistory. Starting in 1983 or something would be intreasting.

I know of at least one guy who isnt doing a whole lot who should mod it

Clue: His name rhymes with milverplentybirdyfine.

 

[das]

Also the Crusader States had already been driven back into the Sea

Not quite yet, surely.

In any case, the Mongols in the West had very good reasons to convert to Islam and no real reasons to convert to Christianity - or even Buddhism. As a matter of fact both were tried to some extent, and it never failed to end in quick disaster. So I still think that Mongols in Muslim Eastern Europe would still end up Muslim.

This is an awesome althistory. Starting in 1983 or something would be intreasting.

Yes, I already pointed it out to you and others before on some occasions. I think the future timeline segments are more interesting from the geopolitical point of view, though.

What if Herbert Hoover could have had 4 terms?

Isn't that a bit overboard? Then again, he lived long. I guess he could've done alright, if allowed to.

 

[Demetrias]

By the time the Mongols got there I believe the only one left was Antioch. The Mongols started out very anti-Muslim and this might haven been exageratted by constant warfare with the Rebelious Russians who you said would be muslim. In Russia they didn't change to fit the population but the reverse so this could be an instance of the same only opposite of what happened in our world.

 

[das]

The Mongols started out very anti-Muslim and this might haven been exageratted by constant warfare with the Rebelious Russians who you said would be muslim.

Firstly, what constant warfare? Secondly, the Mongols had very little trouble with the Orthodox Church in OTL.

In Russia they didn't change to fit the population but the reverse so this could be an instance of the same only opposite of what happened in our world.

Actually, they did change to fit the population of their local core lands (Volga Bulgaria and the like); here, however, they would actually be able to integrate the Russian lands more easily, both due to religious similarities and because those would already be more tied to the Volga, both culturally and commercially.

There might be some other factors as well.

 

[Shadowbound]

I just want to say I am in awe of your power. I play as Germany all the time and can never get anything out of that bastard Russia. I conquer half of hi country and he still wont give me Poland. Though One game I did get half of France but didn't have the Lowlands so didn't know what to do with it.

The trick is that capitals count for 20% warscore, and it's really the only way to quickly end a war with Russia, as taking even 20 provinces is just a drop in the ocean. What I often do is to go straight for the capitals of any allies or satellites, which I've found is a very easy way to knock the British Empire down a notch, especially when rolling through India as Russia in the Krimean War, given all the Indian Principalities.

I'm probably missing quite a bit of the mechanics behind the warscore system with that statement, but I've found that Russia's capital is vulnerable to a quick amphibious assault, and it quickly boosts up my warscore everytime.


Sorry, I couldn't help myself there, and to stop this from going off-topic, I've been working on an NES based on an older timeline Das made, where Kerensky holds the Russian Republic together, brings an earlier end to WW1 and delays the RCW until the late 20s, when Savinkov and his National Socialist Revolutionaries win. It interested me when I noticed no one ever seemed to make a map for it, and I figured it would be a learning experience, and from there it was just the time it took to work on the stats.

I don't have the stats on this computer, but I did upload the map sometime in the past. I just noticed Afghanistan has been conquered by Russia, but that's been fixed in the offline map I have.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/111839/1936_Crossroads_of_Fire.png

Thoughts?

EDIT: Alhist, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3986681&highlight=Kerensky+Polar+Bear#post3986681

 

[Demetrias]

How is any version of alt history off topic even if it is video game based not nes based. And I always had Russias capital it was just the damn bastards wouldn't give me 3 provinces even if I had a warscore of 80+. I wanted poland which aren't national provences but are still major European provinces so they would only let me have one or two. But after 5 years of exhausting war I wanted more then just 1-2 provinces. Also it would mean getting all of poland would take 3 or more wars instead of just two.

 

[Demetrias]

While it is possible for a Russian Republic to weather the storm of the revolutions and fight off communism they would never have been able to do this and hold of the Germans. You have to pick one or the other even the communist new this. Russia doesn't have the tech or the industry to build tanks even if the british gave them the design. The Russian army doesn't have weapons or food and if you don't give the troops either they aren't going to fight for you no matter what changes you promise them at home. In short you can NES a Russian Republic that gave away large chunks to Germany who then lost them because of losing the war to the Americans or you have them lose to another revolt like what happened in otl.

 

[Nuka-sama]

My Alt hist Nes

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=256512

 

[das]

they would never have been able to do this and hold of the Germans.

In the long-term, no. So the trick was to make the Germans quit early, for one reason or another; a stalemate in the Eastern Front might be enough. Looking back, some elements of it were indeed implausible (although the Russians did apparently have some very exotic "tanks" back then), though I wouldn't say that they were beyond the realm of possibility.

That said, there might be another way to save the Russian Republic, though it entails an entirely different alternate history. Basically, had Wilson acted upon the advice of the American ambassador in Petrograd (who wanted an early version of land-lease+major financial assistance to the Republic) and/or that of the British (who wanted the Americans to send an expeditionary corps to the Eastern Front; Wilson was actually warming to that latter idea after the British promised to take care of the logistics, but the October Revolution intervened), which will demand a greater awareness of how close to collapse the situation in the Eastern Front (then considered vital for the Entente strategy, for obvious reasons) was. Saving the Eastern Front for long enough probably means saving the Russian Republic as well, at least for the duration of the war. Afterwards, however, things are likely to go terribly wrong...

Still, I feel that this would be a wholly different, though possibly more interesting scenario.

EDIT: Anyway, Shadowbound, it might interest you to know that Stormbringer did do a NES based on that alternate history way back. It didn't last long, but was pretty fun nonetheless, although I think he could've incorporated various conflicts from the althist world to a greater extent and with more accuracy (as it is, the NES is probably more notable for its ruleset).

 

[Dachs]

Just as I was thinking of reviving this thread, too.

It's sort of creepy; before I left I was working on a Guess-the-PoD map that got cut off by my trip; it's nearly done and should only require a short bit of touchup before postage. It's also funny that as soon as this thread revived, I saw all of these ideas from IM conversations getting posted.

Also, I got this "little" idea while reading through a book I got for Christmas on the wars of Louis XIV: what if the Great Elector had been made King of Poland in the early 1670s? Louis was supporting him for the election (succession - whatever), after all - that is, until the Dutch War broke out and the Brandenburgers went to the Dutch side. It was a pretty big project of the Elector's for awhile, and it was probably enough of a bribe to drag Brandenburg onto the French side in the war, with the accompanying short-term effects of a slightly greater French victory what with the Habsburg distraction and the lack of extra Allied campaigning armies in the Rhineland. Mid-term effects could be extremely interesting if the Poles actually keep Friedrich Wilhelm as king; with the added muscle of his new model army, he might be able to smash that silly elective kingship thing and establish a proper succession. That, and there might very well be no Polish army to stand against the Ottomans at Vienna with the accompanying disastrous effects for the Habsburgs...and the very large amount of fun that Louis XIV will consequently have in Germany itself. Hell, he might even get elected Holy Roman Emperor and recreate the Carolingian hegemony. The Glorious Revolution could get sidetracked, or we could have a NES2 V FK analogue as the Danes, Dutch, and English band together out of sheer fear of the new French colossus. And then Spain will crumble with the death of Carlos II, and this time there won't even be a partition treaty. Meanwhile, the Ottoman Turks might continue to control Hungary and continue to rot from within without a major battle or loss like the disaster of the War of the Holy League and could very well stabilize later on. And then there are the weird dynamics between Russia and Sweden to consider, especially with Brandenburg in "charge" of Poland now (perhaps Brandenburger centralization efforts could precipitate a civil war and a clash with Russia, Sweden, or both). If Louis goes all Catholic Crusader like he does in OTL and imposes his Edict of Fontainebleau on all of his Holy Roman Empire, Germany may collapse into another fun religious war with the associated devastation, destruction, loss of life, and general political and social degeneration. Not sure what effects this would have on the Far East and on the nascent colonies in the Indian Ocean, and of course the rest of it seems very silly, but it could make an interesting setting. Comments?

 

[Demetrias]

I think we should play the NES form the premise that in 1680 Prussia and France are Allied and then see how things develops. The whole thing is just too big to know how it will change events.

 

[Insane_Panda]

As Germany in Victoria, I've been massively successful. As of 1915 or so, my population was at 200,000,000 (greater than the US), with my territory including (besides Germany proper) the whole of the lowlands, Alsace-Lorraine, all of German Austria (I completely overtook the Austro-Hungarian Empire and made all of the ethnic states satellites), Denmark, and Sweden and Norway. The French periodically declared war on me for the majority of the second half of the game, but every time they did I blitzed to Paris and got war indemnities. However, the last time they declared war on me I got so fed up I occupied every single French province, and made them a satellite, so currently I hold Alsace-Lorraine (I held more, but divested myself of the non-german provinces) and France has +200 relations with me. I currently have the second largest military (the UK still has huge amounts of ships) and the largest economy/industry by 2000 or so.

Oddly enough, Baden is still free as a one province satellite.

 

[das]

Poland is an althistorian's paradise, given all the exciting possibilities for easy global changes that stem from its incredibly fun political system.

Mid-term effects could be extremely interesting if the Poles actually keep Friedrich Wilhelm as king; with the added muscle of his new model army, he might be able to smash that silly elective kingship thing and establish a proper succession.

Most certainly, but then again it didn't exactly work out for the Swedes twice, and we all know how little kingship amounts to in Poland. I suspect that this might lead to a civil war in Poland, with other countries intervening to landgrab (Ottomans, Russians) or to oppose (Habsburgs) or support (French, Swedes - the latter for certain concessions, ofcourse) the Elector.

Eitehr way, I agree it would be bad news for the Austrians. I suspect they would try and reconcile with the Elector when they fail to stop him, but even then, and even if Vienna holds, Austria will be greatly reduced in power and prestige.

As for Prussia-Poland, it would inevitably lose some lands on the edges, but aside from that the union may very well survive in the long run. Certainly the Jews and the middle class in general would be all too happy to assist the Prussians, and if it develops into anything meaningful the Polish nobility is screwed.

Hell, he might even get elected Holy Roman Emperor and recreate the Carolingian hegemony

No way. Can you imagine the Electors ever voting for someone this much more powerful than themselves?

Actually, who they might elect to counter Louis is a certain William from a country well-known for its opposition to France. In which case

The Glorious Revolution could get sidetracked, or we could have a NES2 V FK analogue as the Danes, Dutch, and English band together out of sheer fear of the new French colossus.

It will be even more awesome than the FK, as it will tentatively include the Holy Roman Empire (well, to whatever extent the HRE could be included in anything).

And then Spain will crumble with the death of Carlos II, and this time there won't even be a partition treaty.

The French would be quite overstretched as it is, but I agree that no matter who does what Spain will be in chaos, as by then it could only get a pro-French king (or get annexed into France) or get a king affiliated with the anti-French coalition; in either case there would be a lot of malcontents rising up, and foreign interventions galore.

If Louis goes all Catholic Crusader like he does in OTL and imposes his Edict of Fontainebleau on all of his Holy Roman Empire, Germany may collapse into another fun religious war with the associated devastation, destruction, loss of life, and general political and social degeneration.

That goes without saying.

I think we should play the NES form the premise that in 1680 Prussia and France are Allied and then see how things develops. The whole thing is just too big to know how it will change events.

Heh. What proper althistory isn't? We will just have to go with one of the variants. I agree that it would be better to start either before or after the war; but after the war appears as distinctly more fun to me, because otherwise it's just a plain old 17th century NES (not that it's a bad thing, we need one, indeed we need many, but why bother with making some minor changes for it?).

 

[Thlayli]

Here's a funny scenario: The Years of Grain and Pepper. We engineer some catastrophic disaster that wipes out 99% of people in China, India, and the Middle East.

We know that the bubonic plague began in North China, was hypothetically carried by Mongol tribes to Genoan Crimea, and the rest is history. However, if the plague had this theoretical 99% mortality rate from its' inception, Chinese would die in droves, and the Central Asian outbreak would be too self-destructive to allow any infected population to get to the West. At best, the Russian principalities would be moderately affected.

The question is, can we successfully transmit the disease from China to India? If so, it will proceed in an orderly pattern from the Ganges to the Punjab, transmitted there to Muslim traders in the Hindu Kush, and sweep through Baghdad, Syria, and up through the Seljuks/expanding Ottomans. If the Byzantines manage to keep from crossing the Bosporus until Anatolia is picked clean by the disease, and instruct their Genoan friends to stay away from Egypt and Crimea, Europe will be saved from the onslaught.

The results are interesting: Europe will most likely enter the Renaissance earlier, led by Italy as in OTL, but due to the lack of massive serfdom dieoffs, some feudal/chivalric systems could remain viable, even with the faster urbanization. The Catholic Church will maintain an increased prestige, and there will be a Greco-Veneto-Genoan scramble for ports in the Holy Land and Egypt. Byzantines in Baghdad, Brandenburgers in India...the possibilities are interesting, especially if the Catholic Church manages to call a new crusade, we could see little chivalric states sprouting up as far east as India. The 15th century will be very interesting...

 

[North King]

How about we kill off China, but not India?