Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

I apologies for not putting dates of these events down, but I have the basic gist of the idea down. The starting date would be, the end, of the French and Indian War.

The Americas
1 The British manage to capture, the majority of Canada, but fail to take Quebec.

2 This would result in the migration of the French, from the inner Louisiana territories to Quebec resulting in the population boom from the event and major development in the area.

3 The American revolution takes off, but fails to do so, and thus has all the important members killed off or deported into Quebec. The French do manage to take some of the territory from the land and resulted in limited British migration to the Iroquois confederation.

4 About the time of the war of 1812, the French forces are depleted, by the wars that had gone on back in Europe. This left them helpless, to the other forces, and get smashed by the recent arrived British forces. However, it was a very costly attack, which resulted in the mass migration of the French civilians to American, which then really spurred the growth the colonies.

5 The Americans seizing this time of upheaval, declared the war of independence, playing out much how the war of Independence did in OTL. America does gain Independence, in this war and becomes a Juggernaut.
Yet another migration happens with the British Fleeing to the Iroquois confederation, which really became a power, after this event.

6 The Germans also take advantage, of the French by capturing Haiti with the locals help. They then, attack the Dominican Republic, which forces the Spanish to side with the French at this time. The Germans went on a blitzkrieg, that took all of the Spanish Islands, and Florida. The result was these Spanish people migrate in massive numbers into Mexico, the United States and the other Spanish Colonies.

7 Despite the Poles holding out, for an extra two or one hundred years ahead, of the OTL Delcine, they do go out, after the Russians scam the Germans and Austrians and get a large percentage of Poland. The poles flee in large numbers to the United States, German Cuba, and Florida.

8 The theater of war switches from the Eastern United States, to the Great Plains, which the British try to hold onto the territory they once had, but then lost a large amount, to the Spanish and Americans.

9 The British, knowing they don't have a whole lot of time to last, make a last ditch effort, and promised the formation of Mexico as a independent nation. The British did leave but Mexico did get independent and gain much of the territory gained the Spanish. The Germans also flooded into the Spanish held lands, but stopped at New Orleans.

9 The treaty of Dublin was singed declaring that the war of 1812 was over. By then though, all the nations involved were very low on funds, and made both Spain, and France pay massive sums of money to pay the damages.

10 The Americans, though continued to be at war with the Germans, British. The Americans shockingly, forced the British out of the war, and Took all of Germany's continual colonies.
 
There are some other dubious points here, but what really caught my eye from the start were "the Germans". The Germans are, apparently, already united, or at least closely coordinated enough to operate jointly, and at a major distance, in what is basically an offensive war. Furthermore, their operations are partly naval and partly amphibious. Furthermore, they have for some reason decided to invade Haiti (of all the places a semi-unified, navally-capable Germany might possibly want to invade), and received significant local support. And then they go on a "blitzkrieg"? They do, and then they seem to drive out large amounts of Spanish people out of the West Indies. And then invaded Louisiana. Um...

That is so horrible, words escape me. At least the bloody Bosche got expelled from his colonies by the early 19th century Americans soon after, hurray for that.
 
@Slavic Sioux:

1. Uhhh what? What do you mean by majority of canada and Quebec? do you mean New France? The French crown will try to hold onto the southern, more profitable and potential profitable territories - considering they were willing to give up Canada for a sugar island.

2. Not enough people, and the Quebeckers already had crazy birth rates - they are still twenty times behind the English colonies.

3. If the French still have Canada, there will be a) Less intolerable acts to piss of the colonists, and b) a credable French threat to keep them tied to England. Also the second sentance in this point fails at comprehensiblity.

4. Why is there French wars in europe if there was no American independence war earlier? Why do the americans win even though they lack french-spanish-dutch support and are weaker vs Britain at this point in time than the period of the OTL AIW?

5. Onwards...you really need to be giving more information, and maybe check some/many/all your facts.
 
That is so horrible, words escape me. At least the bloody Bosche got expelled from his colonies by the early 19th century Americans soon after, hurray for that.
Well, I admit that Germany wasn't a unfied state at the time, this was assuming that they somehow pulled it together, due to the French, Russian threat.
 
"Somehow" indeed. I really don't see it, and it does not at all explain anything else. Also, what Russian threat? I think Disenfrancised is right and you should give some more information.
 
@Slavic Sioux:

1. Uhhh what? What do you mean by majority of canada and Quebec? do you mean New France? The French crown will try to hold onto the southern, more profitable and potential profitable territories - considering they were willing to give up Canada for a sugar island.
Yes, I was meaning New France when I said that. This Time line was assuming otherwise about the islands. Besides, canada has more significance than those small island

2. Not enough people, and the Quebeckers already had crazy birth rates - they are still twenty times behind the English colonies.
I understand that, but what this was saying though is that, the French people who had lived in the inner parts of New France would be forced back into Quebec. That in turn would trigger a boom in population.

3. If the French still have Canada, there will be a) Less intolerable acts to piss of the colonists, and b) a credible French threat to keep them tied to England. Also the second sentence in this point fails at comprehensibility.
No comprendo (explain please)

4. Why is there French wars in Europe if there was no American independence war earlier? Why do the Americans win even though they lack French-Spanish-dutch support and are weaker vs Britain at this point in time than the period of the OTL AIW?
The war did happen during 1776, but failed totally. It was only during the threat of Napoleon that did the fights and the war of 1812 occurred.

Onwards...you really need to be giving more information, and maybe check some/many/all your facts.
Could you suggest a good source or a alternative to these events that could cause the outcome.

I will kind of need a map of this time period to make it clear.
 
Yes, I was meaning New France when I said that. This Time line was assuming otherwise about the islands. Besides, canada has more significance than those small island

It didn't to the OTL French crown - you need to say why it is different here.

I understand that, but what this was saying though is that, the French people who had lived in the inner parts of New France would be forced back into Quebec. That in turn would trigger a boom in population.

Thats 10-15 thousand people tops, and mainly male trappers, traders and soldiers, hardly enough to trigger a population boom. And certainly not enough to cause troubles for the millions strong british colonies.

No comprendo (explain please)

Some of the causes of the AIW were due to Britains treatment of the Quebeckers, and a major cause of it was the fact that without a french threat on their borders the colonists didn't need the british army any more.

The war did happen during 1776, but failed totally. It was only during the threat of Napoleon that did the fights and the war of 1812 occurred.

But you see, a failed AIW will have huge effects on France (especially if the french don't fund it as much), making the French revolution and the rise of napoleon different.

Could you suggest a good source or a alternative to these events that could cause the outcome.

I will kind of need a map of this time period to make it clear.

What outcome are you looking for? A wikipedia has most of the basic information.
 
@das if your seriously not going to mod that map, at any time, I would be willing to do it in May. Because its just so awesome I can't let it go unmodded.
 
Very well. I'll gladly help.
 
Had it been successful it would've helped Alcibiades much, much more than Mantinea ever could have; a more or less conservative land battle would ultimately favour Alcibiades' enemies more, I'd expect. Still, in the short term there are advantages to be ripped and this is less risky than Sicily.
Mantinea is more epochal though, Ed Creasy notwithstanding. It was the turning point at which Greece began to switch from democratic dominance to oligarchic dominance, especially in the Peloponnesus. The loss at Mantinea, destroying the democratic coalition as it did, would set Athenian political objectives back so far that victory at Syracuse - with the attendant massive overstretch, problematic political orientation for Alcibiades (unless we get rid of the hermai incident), and the political survival and even increase in influence for Nicias, who was annoyingly stupid and generally a retarding factor on Athenian success - wouldn't accomplish the goal of loose Athenian hegemony anyway.
das said:
The problem with Alcibiades is, I really don't think that anyone will let him do that peacefully no matter what he accomplishes. And this is why the Sicilian Expedition was the better option; had it been a huge success, he would've had a base of operations there and could've moved on Athens effectively, whereas in this case he is well within reach of his political opponents.
Who needs a power base, especially when Sicily (and Syracuse in particular) has just as much of a democratic tradition as Athens and is thus not going to sit still for him to make himself satrap? Sicily would revolt as soon as he left, and the Carthaginians would pick up the pieces, and we'd be back to square one again. Besides, with Nicias gone and Hyperbolus ostracized he has no real political enemies if Mantinea doesn't fall through, so against whom would the power base be used? He's not Julius Caesar or even Lysander (the latter having far more resources and a more monarchical historical precedent to work with in Sparta); the position of first citizen existed as far back as Themistocles (if much more loosely defined) and was occupied by Cimon as well. Cimon is actually a good analogue for Alcibiades in some respects, because they're both idiots in many respects and not nearly possessive of the same political acumen that their fathers had (or adoptive fathers in the case of Alcibiades). In any event, Mantinea's prestige would probably be able to elevate him to a high position, and with the help of real military geniuses like Thrasybulus, Thrasyllus, and Demosthenes, Alcibiades could continue taking credit for others' victories (he was good at that) and retain loose power in a Periclean or Cimonian fashion for awhile.
das said:
I suppose that he could attain a great degree of power for a time, but eventually he'll get expelled like many other great Athenian generals that grew too powerful. Specifically, he will get overthrown either after too big a success or the smallest of failures.
This is true. Frankly, I only used him because of a previous discussion in one of these threads about Alcibiades' Caesarism; we can discard him whenever we want, because he doesn't really have many political gifts and militarily he is less competent than some others that Athens has under her
das said:
Egypt is doable (although a puppet ruler, or even just an ally willing to grant lots and lots of concessions, is much more reasonable and likely; besides, I've grown rather fond of late pre-Hellenic Egypt, and it would be very interesting to see how an independent, native-ruled but clearly Greek-influenced Egypt might develop)
Since my knowledge of late pre-Hellenic Egypt is limited to Shishak and whatever pops up in the Bible (admittedly sparse), I yield to you on concessions. I guess the Greeks could expand their Naucratis colony; that previous inroad seems handy.
das said:
but Anatolia and the Levant seem unlikely. A much better land army is needed to subjugate those, and neither the Lydians nor the Phoenicians got along with the Athenians particularly well. I don't think they could do it. Or would - large land areas filled with hostile tribes and cities aren't something a thalassocracy would want to control, regardless of their resources, especially as Egypt can more than replace Anatolia with regards to food supply.
Fair enough there as well. I seem to forget the lack of Anatolian development this early on a lot. :p Though I do think that the Athenians could at least impose nominal control - the Ten Thousand were significantly Athenian, and the Athenians have better light troops than the Spartans did anyway, affording them some advantages in conflict with the Anatolian tribes - holding on to it would be bad and silly.
das said:
Personally I see a longer-lasting Athenian empire predominant in central Greece into the 4th century BC, Macedon ultimately rearing its head regardless but being unable to advance nearly as well as in OTL (for now?), Egypt as an independent and pro-Greek kingdom, the Achaemenid Empire steadily decaying and retreating while its satraps assume more and more power (especially in Anatolia; alternatively, the Macedonians might conquer that even without Greece, though in that case the Athenians will intervenne there as well; I predict a cold war/great game), and more or less what you said about the west.
Oops, I ignored Macedon. :crazyeye: Without Phil and Alex's close contact with Epaminondine Thebes, I figured their military development would slow, but their control over much of the Aegean's timber supply and their on again, off again relationship with Athens might result in the early third century BC seeing a weaker rise of Macedon.
Sicilian power politics will soon get very interesting.
They will, won't they? ;)
Thlayli said:
Ironically enough, I can eventually see a Romano-Carthaginian alliance against the Athenian dominated Greek colonies, centered around the pretensions of Taras and company who will rally around Athenian naval support if it still exists, since both Rome and Carthage were ruled by a fairly conservative, protectionist group of senators circa First Punic War times. Though purely interested in maintaining a commercial empire and hegemony in Latium, respectively, below the surface both will find common cause in taking the Italy and Sicily for themselves.
Taras, being a Spartan colony, is less likely than Thurii (which is less powerful but has a better relationship with Athens). And yes, there probably will be a Romano-Carthaginian alliance, since their only relationships prior to the First Punic War were good, and since they did sign an alliance against that madman Pyrrhus. However, Carthage, after Rome subjugates Samnium and Campania, is in a better position to pick up the pieces of a Roman long, slogging war against Athens (unless the Romans go all genius and grab all of Italian Megala Hellas really fast, in which case the tables are turned).
Okay, I have a somewhat crazy idea, but it might be fun.

Instead of a Guess-the-PoD map, a MAKE the PoD map. For example, I'll create a (plausible) map, let's say circa 1880, with completely or mostly althistorical nations, and set a general era of divergence, like Early Medieval.

Then, we try to build a timeline that fits with the final product. It's kind of reverse-engineering the alternate history process, but would anyone be interested?
Sounds like too much work. :p
6 The Germans also take advantage, of the French by capturing Haiti with the locals help.
As has been previously noted: huh? Germany? Navy? Haiti?
Slavic Sioux said:
7 Despite the Poles holding out, for an extra two or one hundred years ahead, of the OTL Delcine, they do go out, after the Russians scam the Germans and Austrians and get a large percentage of Poland. The poles flee in large numbers to the United States, German Cuba, and Florida.
Uh, massive butterflies? Since the Prussians are too interested in Danzig, Posen, and West Prussia to let those just get away, I assume Russia doesn't get all of Poland. In any event, OTL was largely a "scam", because Russia got most of the country...at least it was the less important parts.
@das if your seriously not going to mod that map, at any time, I would be willing to do it in May. Because its just so awesome I can't let it go unmodded.
I will play! You would be my hero!
Very well. I'll gladly help.
I'm standing by to do whatever I can, though it won't be much given that das has everything.
 
Cimon is actually a good analogue for Alcibiades in some respects, because they're both idiots in many respects and not nearly possessive of the same political acumen that their fathers had (or adoptive fathers in the case of Alcibiades).

Yes, I thought as much, but Cimon was not nearly as scandalous as Alcibiades, and he still got ostracised. The opposition will come out of the woodwork.

As has been previously noted: huh? Germany? Navy? Haiti?

To be fair, though, I don't think he ever mentioned a German navy. :p
Maybe there were ballooning-related butterflies that allowed the Prussians to fly there?

In any event, OTL was largely a "scam", because Russia got most of the country...at least it was the less important parts.

Yes, and we would've gotten it all if it weren't for that meddling Fritz. ;)
 
Yes, I thought as much, but Cimon was not nearly as scandalous as Alcibiades, and he still got ostracised. The opposition will come out of the woodwork.
True, but Cimon did last ten years before he was ostracized, and he was still an influential commander for a few years after that. But, again, we really don't need Alcibiades; the point is for Athenian democracy to achieve hegemony, and that can only really be done if Nicias is out of the way. Elevating Alcibiades and victory at Mantinea seemed the best way to do it.
das said:
To be fair, though, I don't think he ever mentioned a German navy. :p
Maybe there were ballooning-related butterflies that allowed the Prussians to fly there?
Nah, they probably hijacked the Bremen navy, added it to the famed Bohemian ships-of-the-line, and boosted the fleet with the Hong Kee kite air force.
das said:
Yes, and we would've gotten it all if it weren't for that meddling Fritz. ;)
Look at it this way: it's better than being bested by a long-haired, lanky hippie, a gigantic Great Dane, and their idiotic companions who never seem to be around.
 
I'm also working on the continuation of the TNES timeline, up to the late 1600's.

Are you serious? That would be a lot of fun. I am curious, though, why you put so much time into PureNES and let it die so easily :p
 
Are you serious? That would be a lot of fun. I am curious, though, why you put so much time into PureNES and let it die so easily :p

It didn't die all that easily. Not that you would know, being there for, what, the last turn in a semi-active role in one half of the threads? :p
 
I'm still working on Excelsior, which has morphed into more of a long term project while *someone* finishes the cartography.

But yeah, I've already planned out some very interesting things. The Republican Wars in Italy are definitely the bloodiest, and the most interesting so far.
 
It didn't die all that easily. Not that you would know, being there for, what, the last turn in a semi-active role in one half of the threads? :p

Actually, I was involved with Epoch of Glory before the first update to the very last pages, my first story being on page three and my last being on the antepenultimate page. I later changed into another character and continued as I grew bored of Taenevix, but I lurked the entire time between characters, eternally disappointed in my quest to find out more about the religion my people professed. And, given that it made all of 26 pages and four updates, I think that, compared to the massive amount of work I assume went into making the backstory, saying it died relatively easily is quite acceptable. In short, no, you're wrong ;):p

I'm still working on Excelsior, which has morphed into more of a long term project while *someone* finishes the cartography.

But yeah, I've already planned out some very interesting things. The Republican Wars in Italy are definitely the bloodiest, and the most interesting so far.

Bah, Excelsior. And as long as the Lion Throne remains strong, I shall be content.
 
Actually, I was involved with Epoch of Glory before the first update to the very last pages, my first story being on page three and my last being on the antepenultimate page. I later changed into another character and continued as I grew bored of Taenevix, but I lurked the entire time between characters, eternally disappointed in my quest to find out more about the religion my people professed. And, given that it made all of 26 pages and four updates, I think that, compared to the massive amount of work I assume went into making the backstory, saying it died relatively easily is quite acceptable. In short, no, you're wrong

Maybe I just missed your numerous stories and orders, but seeing as I was the mod for several of the updates, I find that highly unlikely. You were there, yes, but you certainly weren't an active player.
 
I'm still working on Excelsior, which has morphed into more of a long term project while *someone* finishes the cartography.

But yeah, I've already planned out some very interesting things. The Republican Wars in Italy are definitely the bloodiest, and the most interesting so far.

Is that the one where I was Austria? :D

I've learned so much since then. I can't wait to see how its fleshed out and how Byzantium exacts its revenge on me :p
 
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