Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

I followed the dominions ideas quite well, but then again Dis exposed me to Alternative History forums so yeah....

Also theres no way that Irelands could own all that :p

And its a Scottish EMPIRE! *Cries with shame and uselessness of Scotland* :p
 
Very cool, it seems those Anglosaxons are at it again! I guess the differences start around 1300? France doesn't win the 100 years war?

Moderately close, bit after 1300 though.

Scotland gets owned by Norweigans and the dirty English let it happen?

Those crazy european dynastic unions! England was pretty happy with the idea actually...

Spain and Portugal united from the start, and never had much interest in the other side of the atlantic?

Not from the start, and the discovery of the new world was pushed back quite a bit leading to a focus on building a [Portugal's Empire]++ in Asia. 'Colombo' on Lanka is named after an Italian commander in the Spanish service who seized that bit of territory ;).

The Quebec territory is an anglo/scottish/norweigan mix? And Uber-Venice forms the backbone of some kind of italian union? And I guess that Croatia/Serbia had some help to hold off the Ottomans?

No, nope, and not really ;).

map redone with all the names you can eat!
Spoiler :

drangnachwestenwnamesfl9.gif

 
No offense, but every time I look at that, I think it's more unrealistic than the last time I looked. :p
 
It's gorgeous....soooo dis, making an NES anytime soon? :p

Although some timeline that explains all...that...would be nice ;)
 
1) Russian colonies? No offense to our native Russian posters, but the likelihood of Russia grabbing those with her minimal warm-water ports is... minimal. :p Moreover, she has more important concerns, like Central Asia.

2) Speaking of Central Asia, what era is this? Because Russia seems to have made very few incursions, while the rest of the world is very developed.

3) Tilemark? I'm guessing Danish? How did they get over there?

4) How on Earth has Catalonia managed to remain independent?

5) Given the Ottomans, the PoD can't have been much later than 1300 or so. How exactly did Germany nab Champagne? Why would the French or the English have let that happen?

6) Given the level of development elsewhere, the massive Songhai'i empire seems a little suspect. How exactly did they survive, given migration patterns and encroaching Europeans?

7) The British North America... plus British Central America... plus British South America... in general seems very, very strange.
 
7) The British North America... plus British Central America... plus British South America... in general seems very, very strange.
Those are all Irish, actually.

For my two cents on what's wrong with it, I second most of what North King said and furthermore add Ryukyu and the Aleutian situation to the list of ridiculousness. I also protest the continued use of obsolete maps, you Luddite.
 
1) Russian colonies? No offense to our native Russian posters, but the likelihood of Russia grabbing those with her minimal warm-water ports is... minimal. :p Moreover, she has more important concerns, like Central Asia.

The colonies are very recent developments with political motivations from Baltic traders and pro-Navy advocates, only occuring after Russia made Denmark her client and took Holstein. As to Central Asia, its almost like like Russia has been focused on the Baltic and central europe for a few centuries to her detriment else. 'sides post 1750 the central asians are no threat to Russia, she doesn't need to take them over, and if there are far more valuble territories in europe to grab.

2) Speaking of Central Asia, what era is this? Because Russia seems to have made very few incursions, while the rest of the world is very developed.

See above, european success for Russia has come at cost elsewhere.

3) Tilemark? I'm guessing Danish? How did they get over there?

Its a dominion of the UK, the name comes from the early scottish and norweigen forays into the arctic archepelgo, 'Tile' is derived from 'Thule' to be the Scots name for iceland and parts beyond, and 'mark' in from the germanic root meaning borderland (see Finnmark in Norway).

4) How on Earth has Catalonia managed to remain independent?

After Aragon collapsed the Catalans resisted annexation by Portugal-Castille with aide from Aquitine and proto-Italy, and Spain decided that the Catalans were no threat and they had things to do in asia.

5) Given the Ottomans, the PoD can't have been much later than 1300 or so. How exactly did Germany nab Champagne? Why would the French or the English have let that happen?

Opposite way round, a powerful Burgundy was fully inducted into the HRE, and ended up dominating first the Rhine, and then the whole she-bang when an impetus to unification came round. England tried to stop this progression at several points (see small north sea states and still divided north france) but lost out in the end.

Also what French ;)?

6) Given the level of development elsewhere, the massive Songhai'i empire seems a little suspect. How exactly did they survive, given migration patterns and encroaching Europeans?

No Moroccan invasion let them survive that civil war intact, then it was up and down under various dynasties (see if you can spot the joke in the names) and now they are at a peak of geographic spread if not power. Plus the time period is 1890-1900, the european inroads into africa are only just begining (and europe is less powerful proportionally due to later new world discovery)

7) The British North America... plus British Central America... plus British South America... in general seems very, very strange.

Aye, its almost like someone other than the Spanish (and much weaker) opened the americas* (the hints are pretty obvious I feel), and then England got in on the ground floor ;). Plus note that the English have much reduced presence elsewhere in the world.

*Arcadia-Hesperidia here.

@Sym: See with all your versions of the map having the same file name I forgot if I using the most recent one or not :shock:. The Aleutians is sloppy use of the select tool on my part I'll admit :lol:
 
As to Central Asia, its almost like like Russia has been focused on the Baltic and central europe for a few centuries to her detriment else. 'sides post 1750 the central asians are no threat to Russia, she doesn't need to take them over, and if there are far more valuble territories in europe to grab.
How have the conditions changed that drastically as opposed to OTL? Russia never spent that many resources on seizing Central Asia after all. And whatever fools are in charge of Bohemia and the Deutscher Kernbund need to have their heads examined. Morons and traitors. Also, Atomic Union?!? :p Yeah, I know it's "core union" or something similar, but a "Nuclear Federation" would be cooler and was what I originally thought of when I saw that name.
Disenfrancised said:
Opposite way round, a powerful Burgundy was fully inducted into the HRE, and ended up dominating first the Rhine, and then the whole she-bang when an impetus to unification came round.
How'd this "induction" go other than usual? What were imperial politics like over the past few centuries since the PoD? (I still think that das did a Burgundian incorporation better when he wrote the "End of the Hundred Years War" TL that led to DisNES II.)
 
How have the conditions changed that drastically as opposed to OTL? Russia never spent that many resources on seizing Central Asia after all. And whatever fools are in charge of Bohemia and the Deutscher Kernbund need to have their heads examined. Morons and traitors. Also, Atomic Union?!? :p Yeah, I know it's "core union" or something similar, but a "Nuclear Federation" would be cooler and was what I originally thought of when I saw that name.

Well considering that Russia didn't really move in to Central Asia till post-1820 OTL, and that was after expansion in europe stopped and it was mainly occupying political vacuums (that here is filled by the chinese), I don't see it as unreasonable that Russia didn't push south. Its much like OTL US and the tier of mexican states just south of the rio grande - sure they could have taken them relatively easily, but there was other things to do/not the political will.

This HRE rolled a critical failure on leadership its true ;). Stupid cheap 1920s german dictionary!

How'd this "induction" go other than usual? What were imperial politics like over the past few centuries since the PoD? (I still think that das did a Burgundian incorporation better when he wrote the "End of the Hundred Years War" TL that led to DisNES II.)

Well a) since he actually had a written timeline of course it was better written (though I recently think the lack on an Atlantic economy would have far greater effects in the 16th century than that TL posits) than my map :lol:, b) thats a pretty high writing standard to hold me too, and c) you sure you don't like it just because there is a huge uber-HRE ;)?

The induction itself? Habsburg marriage again (a strong presense in the empires west is a clear strategic goal for them after all, and they do seem lucky that way), though with different names and persons. Its still called the HRE btw, and imperial politics are as messy and inordinately tangled as always.
 
@Sym: See with all your versions of the map having the same file name I forgot if I using the most recent one or not :shock:.
Why needlessly edit a post? That you can't be arsed to read the edit date in the bottom-left corner is not my problem. :p
 
Chapter 1 Summary: In 1582, Nobunaga thwarted an attempted assassination attempt. In the following campaigns, he effectively unified Japan by 1589. With Japan unified, Nobunaga turned to inward reforms, such as promotion of Europeanization, as well as external expansion at the expense of China. This external expansion resulted in the declaration of war against Korea in 1591.


Chapter 2: High Noon

Despite Japan having declared war on them in 1591, Korea was not worried. Their southern coast had long been attacked by wako, Japanese pirates, which had lead to certain military evolutions. Because of the success these evolutions had against the wako, Korea was confident they could handle a Japanese invasion.

On land, the Koreans primary doctrine depended on the defensive. The linchpins of this defensive strategy were the fortresses and walls systems in Korea. Many of these fortresses were situated on mountains and were designed to dominate passes and supply lines. They were also intended to be a refuge for civilians in times of war. These fortresses were defended by an excellent artillery arm, which was perhaps the best in Asia. This excellent artillery extended to its use in naval combat, where the Koreans relied upon the strategy of bombardment to destroy the enemy fleet.

Court politics and apathy, however, negated many of these advantages and highlighted several disadvantages to the Korean system of war. The fortress system, designed to provide a defense of depth, was marked by poorly designed fortresses that failed to take advantage of foundational defensive engineering techniques such as towers and areas designed to set up areas of cross-fire. In addition, many of the fortresses were poorly maintained. Adding to the fortress system’s weakness was the Korean policy that local commanders could not take initiative in war until a general appointed by the court arrived on the scene. This served to isolate the defenders, as they could not move to assist each other until some time had passed. In addition, when the court appointed generals did arrive, they were often ignorant of the local terrain, troop strengths, and deployment. The generals themselves were often appointed based on social connections rather than skill, and so on average these generals were incompetent. The troops these generals led usually matched the incompetence of their generals. Korea had no standing field army at this time, and so relied on poorly armed, poorly trained levies.

In contrast, Japan’s strength was in its troops and generals. Japan had several notable generals, who combined natural talents with war experience earned through the recent Japanese unification under Nobunaga. These generals led highly trained and experienced armies which consisted mostly of arquebuses armed infantry. In preparation for the invasion, Japan had also expanded its naval capabilities. While the majority of this expansion was in the traditional Japanese naval tactics, which relied on speed and boarding actions, Nobunaga had used his contacts within the Jesuits to secure three Portuguese galleons.

Preparations for war were complete in Japan by 1592, and during the spring Sō Yoshitoshi set sail with close to fifteen thousand men. Sō Yoshitoshi was the daimyo of Tsushima near Korea and was knowledgeable of the surrounding terrain, leading to him to be selected to set up a bridgehead for the main army. This force landed at Busan, whose general was informed of the invasion but took no steps, not believing that the Japanese would actually dare invade his glorious nation. This belief proved unfounded, and under cover of arquebuses fire the city was stormed, resulting in the fall of Busan after a three day battle. As ordered, Yoshitoshi began fortifying Busan, waiting for the main army under Hashiba Hideyoshi to arrive.

Meanwhile, a Korean army under General Yi arrived outside of Busan. The lack of Japanese activity since the fall of Busan convinced General Yi that the invasion was merely a minor raid by the Japanese. As such, General Yi assembled about five thousand troops outside of Busan, planning on a quick strike to overrun the Japanese. The Korean charge, however, withered under Japanese gunfire, and a counter-attack completely encircled the Korean camp, leading to General Yi’s capture.

Yoshitoshi, taking advantage of General Yi’s defeat, moved to consolidate his position, taking almost the entirety of Gyeongsang Province. Meanwhile, the second division, close to twenty-five thousand men under command of Hashiba Hideyoshi disembarked at Busan and immediately moved northward, intending to capture Hanseong.[1]

He would face General Sin Rip, the Vice Minister of War, and the commander sent by the court to replace the captured General Yi. General Sin began fortifying Choryong pass, which the Japanese would have to pass through in order to reach Hanseong. General Sin had about fifteen thousand men, five thousand newly raised cavalry from the capital reinforced by eight thousand provincial levies and two thousand survivors from Busan.

The Battle of Choryong Pass went poorly from the start for the Koreans. Knowing that his cavalry was useless in the cramped, broken terrain of the pass, General Sin placed them in the rear of his forces. This, however, exposed his levies, who broke under the Japanese charge. General Sin attempted to lead his cavalry in a counter-charge, but they ran into the retreating infantry, causing even greater chaos.

The way through the pass clear, Hideyoshi advanced along the Han River unmolested, until he finally found a point he could cross with his army. Upon reaching Hanseong, he found the city abandoned and partially looted by the retreating Imperial Court. The Koreans next took up defensive lines along the Imjin River with eleven thousand men. Without boats, Hideyoshi proved unable to cross the Imjin River, resulting in the offensive stalling.

Meanwhile, Japanese reinforcements continued to flood Korea, bringing the total Japanese force in Korea to just shy of one hundred and fifty thousand men organized in seven divisions under the overall command of Hideyoshi. With the exception of Hideyoshi’s forces, which continued to look for a way to cross the Imjin River, the Japanese forces were deployed in securing the southern peninsula, which by this point was suffering under rebellions against the Japanese. Around this time the Japanese also began suffering from supply problems born from the Korean Admiral Yi’s naval successes.

Admiral Yi, along with Admiral Won, had been ambushing Japanese supply convoys, using intelligence gained from native fishermen. This led to the Japanese fleet, under Konishi Yukinaga, to receive orders to hunt down Admiral Yi’s fleet and destroy it. Yukinaga, believing that the Korean incompetence on land would be mirrored on the ocean, aggressively began to hunt down the Korean fleet. Unfortunately for him, not only did he face a naval arm much superior to the Korean army in quality and equipment, but he also faced one of the best Korean commanders, Admiral Yi. The first engagement turned into a disaster for the Japanese, as the Koreans used the Japanese aggressiveness against them, using a fake retreat to draw out the Japanese before crushing them.

Now even more determined to crush Admiral Yi, Nobunaga attached his precious Portuguese galleons to Yukinaga’s force. This time, the hunt took them almost to Yi’s base at Yeosu before meeting. Though the battle was more even than the previous lopsided defeat, Admiral Yi used the shallow water and local knowledge to his advantage. In addition, he too had a new weapon, two Kobuksons, which he used to attack the Japanese line, throwing it in confusion. In addition to being extremely fast, powered by both sails and oars, the Kobuksons, with their flat bottom, were more maneuverable in the shallower waters. Though the galleons sunk one of the Kobuksons, after one of the galleons ran aground, the others withdrew, worried about suffering a similar fate, which would leave them helpless. Their trump card having fled, the rest of the Japanese forces quickly followed suit, leaving many of their ships behind.

After this defeat, Nobunaga forbade Yukinaga from engaging Admiral Yi directly. Instead, Nobunaga ordered Nabeshima Naoshige, together with fifteen thousand men, to assault Yeosu from the landward side. Meanwhile, at sea, Nobunaga attempted to neutralize Admiral Yi’s impact on the supply route by instituting a convoy system revolving around his Portuguese galleons, which he believed would be superior in open ocean waters to Yi’s forces.

Resisting the Japanese land invasion primarily fell to Gwak Jae-u, a former land owner, who had raised a militia of about five thousand men to resist the Japanese. Later, various militia and semi-regular troops raised his troop total up to ten thousand men. Knowing that he could not meet the Japanese in open battle, Gwak resorted to guerilla warfare. Despite the harassing attacks, the Japanese managed to arrive at and besiege Jinju, the key castle in the defense of Jeolla Province, of which Yeosu was the capital. Supply problems hampered the siege, as the Korean guerillas effectively denied the besieging army resupply. This forced Naoshige’s hand, causing him to order a general assault in hopes of quickly ending the resistance. Under suppressing fire from their arquebuses, the Japanese stormed the castle. Though originally futile, the Korean commander was eventually killed in the fighting, causing the garrison to lose heart. Seeing their chance, the Japanese pressed the attack. A late attempt at a diversionary attack by Gwak’s guerillas did not prevent the fall of the castle, though it did buy the garrison time to raze the castle and withdraw in an orderly fashion.

With the fall of Jinju, Admiral Yi knew that he could not long stay in Yeosu, and so he was forced to sail northward to where he could establish a safer base. As a result of Yi’s withdraw, the Japanese supply situation improved drastically.

As 1592 drew to a close, the Japanese looked to be in a good situation. Though failing in their original goal of sweeping through Korea in their march on China, the Japanese did successfully take Hanseong, along with most of the country. For the most part, the south was under Japanese control, though rebellious militia groups continued to roam the countryside. By the end of the year, the Japanese supply situation had improved markedly, allowing Hideyoshi to confidently declare to Nobunaga that he would be able to break through the Imjin River’s defenses in the spring.

But unfortunately for the Japanese, they were not the only ones who were predicting a renewed offensive for the Japanese in the spring. In the court of the Ming Emperor, the Emperor, under the influence of Korean diplomats, saw the Japanese threat as one that could no longer be ignored. With Japanese successes, the Emperor decided that the threat must be met by what he saw as an overwhelming force. And so, the decree went out. One hundred thousand men would march into Korea to teach the insolent Japanese a lesson.

[1]Seoul
 
An interesting twist of events in the Imjin War with Nobunaga instead of Hideyoshi ruling Japan. And only one hundred thousand being dispatched by the Wanli Emperor against the barbaric Japanese? ;)
 
And only one hundred thousand being dispatched by the Wanli Emperor against the barbaric Japanese? ;)
Shh, they're in decline. :p

Also, since Alex is apparently unwilling to do his trademark, I'ma go ahead and say that there is too much military stuff in this TL. ...nah, who am I kidding? Good stuff! Although, I gotta wonder, why are the Chinese sending in their usual 100K to take down the Japanese when they aren't doing as well as they did in OTL? Or is this just a butterfly?
 
Although, I gotta wonder, why are the Chinese sending in their usual 100K to take down the Japanese when they aren't doing as well as they did in OTL? Or is this just a butterfly?

Well it is debatable whether the Japanese are doing better in OTL or here. While they certainly didn’t penetrate as far north, this has allowed them to concentrate on the south, which is better pacified than OTL. Taking Yeosu, Admiral Yi’s home base, was especially significant as Admiral Yi was forced north, making him less of a threat against the Japanese supply line.

As for why China is sending 100K, I am assuming that the Korean diplomat was sent to China shortly after the fall of the capital, when things looked the worst for Korea. Plus, there are really no major victories for Korea which would suggest them turning the tide, while Japan keeps steamrolling through southern Korea. Then there is the fact that Japan has upturned China’s tributary system of China->Korea->Japan, presenting a threat to the established order and a blow to Chinese prestige. To restore the order of heaven, the Japanese must be taught an overwhelming lesson. There is even some talk of invading Japan itself and installing a new “King” of Japan (due to a misunderstanding, China is under the impression that Nobunaga calls himself King of Japan).


Edit: And to the tongue in cheek mention of too much war 1) I talked (relatively a lot) about culture and economy in chapter 1; 2) Here in chapter 2 I have sowed the seeds of future non-war points of interest by "promoting" certain Japanese Christians past what they held in OTL. That was not an accident, neither by Nobunaga nor by me; 3) Chapter 3 will have plenty of intrigue by all parties involved.
 
I was trying to say China should have sent much more, more like the 200 thousand they sent in OTL ;)
 
I call Genericistan Dis;)
 
I was trying to say China should have sent much more, more like the 200 thousand they sent in OTL ;)

100,000 was the initial deployment in OTL (well, discounting the initial, initial deployment of 3,000 that got trounced). One of my main sources for the war, The Cambridge History of China does mention the 200,000 figure, but in context of China's contribution during the entire war, not initial deployment. Another source, "Yi Said, Li Said: Perspectives on the End of the First Greater East Asian War" by Swope, proffessor of history at Ball State states that in 1598 there were "possibly upwards of 50,000" Chinese troops in Korea. Another article I read quotes a different Swope article as saying that Chinese involvement in Korea never went above 60,000 men, though I don't have access to that particular Swope article to check. On the non-peer reviewed side, I have no reason to doubt this assesertion as it seems to fall in line with my other research:

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=2098&view=findpost&p=4698851 said:
Different sources state otherwise, the Japanese side...state 200,000. Korea states 53,000. I'm not sure what the Ming Shi states, But the secondary Chinese sources I have state 100,000 which might have been from Chinese first hand sources. So I take that. and So did many historians who think the Korean and Japanese sources are the extremes and the Ming troops are probably within these extremes.
 
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