an abortion thread with no personal attacks

You can shoot me in the head whether or not I have "rights"; the mechanical process of putting a gun to my head and pulling the trigger is in no way obstructed by an abstract prohibition. If you're asking whether or not you should shoot me in the head, that's altogether too circumstantial a question to give a simple "yes" or "no".
 
No, but why shouldn't I shoot you in the head if you have no rights?

And a more generic question, why don't you believe in rights?

Generally if you claim something exists, you're supposed to provide the evidence that it does exist instead of asking people to prove a negative. Why do you believe in rights?
 
Unfortunately that amounts to the same thing here.
Not really. The "reason why" makes an important difference.

It´s beyond a government´s control whether people engage in stupid or unethical behaviour.
Irrelevant. Point is, said stupid or unethical behavior is still punishable even if nobody actually gets hurt. There is already a longstanding legal precedent, unchallenged by the courts, in which government is authorized to control your body. Such as by throwing you in jail if you drive your car while blitzed.

Whether abortion is good or bad has no bearing on what a government should provide.
Then don't bring up the topic of what a government should provide--because, as you said yourself, the one has no bearing on the other.

I'm increasingly tending to think that the difficulty of a reasonable ethical debate on abortion lies in the failure to establish as shared metaphysical framework, and given the strength of religious belief (both of the scholastic and irrationalist varieties) among the majority of pro-lifers, I'm fairly sceptical that this would actually be possible.
Well, here we have proof that an abortion thread with no personal attacks is extremely difficult--because T-fish committed one, against pretty much every religious person on the planet....... :eek:

Granted that religious people are stubborn. However, being seated squarely in the middle of the whole thing, I can say with 100% confidence that both sides are extremely stubborn on this issue.
 
He said rational debate would be impossible because of religious people being so passionate on the issue, ignoring everyone else doing the same thing. So I would consider it a slight insult, though its not something I'm above doing or something I'm going to demonize him over.
 
Well he specifically said that strong religious convictions would make it difficult to establish a shared metaphysical framework, which seems true enough, so I didn't interpret it that way.
 
Meh, everything is open to interpretation. I guess it depends on how you look at it. Truth be told, the only person who knows for sure what he meant is him:)

Let's move on, shall we?:p
 
Well he specifically said that strong religious convictions would make it difficult to establish a shared metaphysical framework
Delete the word "religious" from that, and you've got it. (or was it T-fish who's got it?? :D )

Strong convictions of any kind make it difficult to find common ground. And I speak from personal experience, because at one time or another I've been on both sides of the abortion argument.
 
Dommy said:
Meh, everything is open to interpretation. I guess it depends on how you look at it. Truth be told, the only person who knows for sure what he meant is him

Let's move on, shall we?

Yes, let's. Answer this, please. It's the only point at which this thread has been even remotely interesting.

I don't want you to shoot me in the head. Isn't that reason enough?


I don't think that we have any reason to believe that they exist.
 
I think that 'rights' fall into the category where we create collective punishment for those who violate them. Remember, to punish another costs me something, and so (biologically) we consider whether punishing is worth the cost. Many, many animals will bother to 'punish' if the perceived offense is against themselves, but punishments for affecting someone else are very rare in the animal kingdom.

Humans are willing to punish strangers (at personal cost) for something the stranger did to someone else. This allows us to create rules of society. Amongst those rules, we have learned that some of the rules are objectively applicable enough that they deserve actual moral standing. It's not just about what 'works', but is also what is 'good'. Those are often incorporated into the idea of 'rights'. (Other rights seem to give consideration to the idea of 'natural' - it's 'natural' for a person to defend themselves or want to reproduce, ergo they deserve those rights).
 
Well, much as I like TF he is just swimming in his element with that particular statement: challenging all terms and definitions. While I sympathize with that getting wearisome fairly frequently I am also inclined to think it is likely the only productive conversation to be had here.
 
Why reject that particular fiction when you're prepared to take so many others at face value?
Which ones do you mean?

(Edit: My originally post was as Winston quotes it, but I changed it a little while later because it seemed like it be taken facetiously. (Just me being paranoid? I dunno.) Presumably he quoted my original post before I edited, but only came back to it later.)

Well, much as I like TF he is just swimming in his element with that particular statement: challenging all terms and definitions. While I sympathize with that getting wearisome fairly frequently[...]
It's nice to know that I've graduated from being tediously pedantic to tediously sceptical. Go me! :lol:
 
Actually had to laugh. Considered using "pedantic" and discarded it. No offense taken I hope, none intended. :D
 
Which ones are you referring to?

You're still a Marxist, aren't you? If so, your perspective relies on a whole number of imagined devices (i.e. fictions), both to explain the world and to have any hope of changing it. These things are not 'real' in any material sense, but this has not prevented them from having influence over the course of events, for better or worse.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but knowing you there's an insightful point being made if only I could figure it out. ;)

When you say you don't believe in human rights, the implication is two-fold. On the one hand, you are pointing out that they are fictions; that they themselves have no material existence to speak of. On the other hand, you are suggesting that these fictions have no utility; that we would be better off if we stopped thinking and talking and acting as if they were real. The latter does not flow inevitably from the former here. Regardless of their metaphysical status, I would judge that these particular fictions have been a reasonably (and, on occasion, remarkably) effective catalyst for positive change, which makes me wonder why you're so ready to cast them aside.
 
You're still a Marxist, aren't you? If so, your perspective relies on a whole number of imagined devices (i.e. fictions), both to explain the world and to have any hope of changing it. These things are not 'real' in any material sense, but this has not prevented them from having influence over the course of events, for better or worse.
Ah, I see. Well, I'd argue that there's a distinction to be made between abstractions and fictions: that an abstraction is something that does not exist in itself, but describes something which does (or, at least, is purported to), while a fiction is something that simply does not correspondence to reality. To take your example of Marxism, I would certainly agree that "class struggle" has no independent existence, that it is an abstraction drawn from numerous historically specific relationships, while the National Socialist concept of "racial struggle" is simply a fiction, because it poses entirely made-up groups doing entirely made-up things, and doesn't describe our reality any more than an episode of Scobby Doo.

When you say you don't believe in human rights, the implication is two-fold. On the one hand, you are pointing out that they are fictions; that they themselves have no material existence to speak of. On the other hand, you are suggesting that these fictions have no utility; that we would be better off if we stopped thinking and talking and acting as if they were real. The latter does not flow inevitably from the former here. Regardless of their metaphysical status, I would judge that these particular fictions have been a reasonably (and, on occasion, remarkably) effective catalyst for positive change, which makes me wonder why you're so ready to cast them aside.
Well, as I said above, I wouldn't reject the claim that abstractions are useful- necessary, in fact- I'd simply regard this particular abstraction as a fiction, as deriving from false premises. I don't think that we have any reason to believe that "natural rights" exist, and that, so far as I have encountered them, theories purported to demonstrating the existence of natural rights are flawed. I could well be wrong, but it seems to me reasonable to decline affirmation of their existence until it is demonstrate to me, rather than affirming it on the assumption that somebody, somewhere, is capable of demonstrating it should the need arise.

Of course, that raises the further question of the relationship between validity and usefulness, and I'll readily admit that it's far from apparent that this is the case; there are such as thing as useful fictions. I wouldn't criticise the rallying cry of "the rights of man" in the Early Modern ear, for instance, because I think that the political philosophy it expressed contained a genuinely emancipatory content, and that it articulated in an authentic manner the social and political experience of those who took it up as their own. I'm not as a matter of universal principle opposed to the concept of rights, but rather that I view their emancipatory potential as being ultimately limited, that at some point a new ethical and thus political paradigm is necessary to continue the project of human emancipation.

So at the risk of invalidating the pose of empiricism that I adopt above, I'd hazard that "natural rights" isn't simply an idea that is simply wrong, that needs to be abandoned as an error, but rather something that needs to be surpassed, that has functioned as the historically necessary condition of such a paradigm. You could debate when that becomes the case, and in all honesty I'm not entirely sure myself, but I think that it's a point in time that we have either arrived at, or that we will arrive at in the not too distant near future. My rejection of natural rights theory may seem nihilistic, and in a certain sense it is, but it's not an ahistorical nihilism, a claim that "this is objectively bollocks", but an historical one, a claim that the theory is no longer sufficient as the articulation of our emancipatory impulse.



(Also, it occurs that some of you will think me a hopelessly rash anarchist, while other will think me another tedious post-68er. The wonders of perspective! :D)
 
I am writing a novella that some of you will probablyattack me over that has abortion as a central theme.

I will publish it here if I am not banned first. Odds are 3-1 against.
 
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