an abortion thread with no personal attacks

If you feel that way, you missed my point

because you did not make one, you only spoke to the thought and actions of others, whom you dont even agree with.....it would be like me saying "I dont believe in justice or human rights, but those that do are a bunch of hypocrites sitting here typing up bs on this forum....they should be taking up arms in some hell hole or feeding babies in africa...
 
To Ziggy Stardust:

Your argument, that if they really considered it as homicides, they would do more to stop it than just talking, is erroneus.
"if they consider it worse than the holocaust really". And that has been claimed numerous times. And they do insist on having it on par with murder morally.
There were many mass-murders, genocides and other crimes against life in history when only few people did something to stop it.

For example during WW2, or before that during WW1 (Armenian genocide, etc.). Or after 1945 for example in Africa, in the Balkans, etc., etc.

This happens everyday (various mass crimes against life) and nothing is done.

In China human lifes are not respected - what did the US authorities do about that? They shake hands with Chinese leaders every day. When China occupies Tibet and violates human rights, nothing is done. When Ukraine mistreats Yulia Tymoshenko, everyone boycotts Euro 2012. And nobody has boycotted Sochi 2014 so far, despite much more serious crimes commited by China every day. This reveals deceitfulness of so called "Western democracies" and their leaders.

Abortion cliniques yield considerable profits - just like businesses with strong China (and contrary to businesses with weak Ukraine).
I specifically said: "If I knew these things were going on in my country". I am aware we don't really give that much of a crap about people in far away places.

because you did not make one
Riiiiight.

Please explain where you found the accusation of hypocrisy in my post. A quote would be nice.
you only spoke to the thought and actions of others, whom you dont even agree with.....it would be like me saying "I dont believe in justice or human rights, but those that do are a bunch of hypocrites sitting here typing up bs on this forum....they should be taking up arms in some hell hole or feeding babies in africa...
And you also didn't read my post very well.
 
For the same reason internal combustion engines have not yet been replaced by better technology - because of strong pro-oil industry lobby.
So to refer to the most discussed alternative - electronic cars - I take it the expensiveness of those, their short range of operation, the long time it takes to recharge them and the short life-expectancy of the batteries all are not relevant? Or perhaps those are all lies facilitated by you know who?
 
A small illustration from this thread which has been civil compared to others. Others where I have been accused of supporting mass-murder for instance.
That said, abortion is much, much more evil than slavery. At least slavery wasn't murder
Abortion is murder, its barbaric, and I have absolutely no fear of pointing this out.
The question is then "Why shouldn't murder be allowed" from our side.
If the pro-life argument is right, then abortion is one of the biggest atrocities in the history of mankind.
Now you may disagree with my reasoning all day long, but you can't disagree that "the biggest atrocity in the history of mankind" is a little more severe than a homocide.

Furthermore I may need to point out, unfortunately, that I was not addressing the entirety of the pro-life movement, but specified people who use these specific arguments. And I called them more level-headed than I previously gave them credit for.

I'm so sorry. I'll go back to thinking they're fruit-loopy insane if that's more acceptable.
 
Please explain where you found the accusation of hypocrisy in my post. A quote would be nice.



Therefore I feel it's safe to say that almost no one thinks it's murder. And that's actually a compliment to the pro-life people. Instead of sitting back and allowing the murder of innocent persons, they merely are using a debating tool. Which may be dishonest, but at least it's not as gruesome if they really did believe it to be murder.

So fellers, stick to your guns on the murder charges. And keep fighting the good, but entirely meaningless, fight from behind your keyboard. The silently screaming foetusses will be thankful for your non-intervention into the matter.

hypocrisy, ad hominen at it's best.. :goodjob:
 
Well, I'm aware of at least one abortion opponent on this board (you have one guess) who actually said that women who have aborted deserve the death sentence, just like murderers.

Is that representative of all abortion opponents? I don't think so, but that's the mindset that dominates the debates.

It's the most extreme mindset so it is what will be picked out by opponents. Pro-choicers have probably had a significant part in framing pro-lifers this way, because it makes their opposition seem the worst. I think that goes both ways. Late-term intact dilation and extraction abortions and "repeated abortion as birth control" are what pro-lifers are going to pick out from the pro-choice crowd.

The thing we have to keep in mind is the most extreme of us are usually less invested in actual improvement in the human condition than in "being right." Don't drink their Kool-Aid. :lol:
 
I'm so sorry. I'll go back to thinking they're fruit-loopy insane if that's more acceptable.

Ok, perhaps we can clarify what we mean. I've probably missed some of your meaning.

I'm taking your point to be "I find the actions of the pro-life population to indicate that they actually have gradated views on the personhood/humanity/whatever of the unborn."

If this is correct, I am challenging this point and counter-asserting that pro-lifers who actually use the term "murder" do not generally have a shifting scale in regard to embryos/fetuses/zygotes and instead are improperly using the word murder when it overstates how culpable they think those who enable/undergo/perform abortions are.

Was that a poor read on my part, pretty close to the truth, or me rolling the wrong way with some ambiguity?
 
hypocrisy, ad hominen at it's best.. :goodjob:
I am not saying they are holding others to standards they do not keep themselves. I am also not saying that because of a personal flaw they have they are wrong. So I'm neither accusing them of hypocrisy nor am I using an ad hominem.

But I do notice how you use those terms to create an emotional impact. Now where have I heard that before ...
Ok, perhaps we can clarify what we mean. I've probably missed some of your meaning.

I'm taking your point to be "I find the actions of the pro-life population to indicate that they actually have gradated views on the personhood/humanity/whatever of the unborn."
Nope. I already knew that.

If this is correct, I am challenging this point and counter-asserting that pro-lifers who actually use the term "murder" do not generally have a shifting scale in regard to embryos/fetuses/zygotes and instead are improperly using the word murder when it overstates how culpable they think those who enable/undergo/perform abortions are.
But they are adamant about it. I often addressed them on their usage and their reasoning is, sure legally it isn't murder, but morally it is equivalent to it.
Was that a poor read on my part, pretty close to the truth, or me rolling the wrong way with some ambiguity?
After I have just been accused of calling people hypocrites and saying their stupid thus their argument is invalid, I would dearly love to say you're spot on. But I'm afraid I keep failing at getting my point across ;)

Simply put: I believe they are aware they do not think of abortion as murder, but since it helps their case in a debate, they'll use it and stick to it.
 
Have you considered the possibility that they aren't aware of their own distinction between murder and homicide because you, in opposition to them rhetorically, have thought more extensively than they have about the moral ramifications of their position?
 
Well, they call it morally equivalent to murder. And an abortion is premeditated and when done by a doctor in cold blood.
 
Is the bolded part anything more than wishful thinking? What's your evidence here?
Well, long story short, it's because I think that we're have arrived or will soon arrive at a point in time where communism becomes a material necessity, and I don't think that the logic of "rights" is capable of articulating the emancipatory impulse in its communist form.

I don't think that one can present "evidence" for this, at least in the scientific sense, because it's always going to be a matter of interpretation- much the same as the original thesis of "natural rights" cannot be empirically demonstrated. (I can't speak for everyone, but I've never seen a vial of free speech or a pellet of equality-before-the-law.) All I could do is offer some interpretation for why I hold the opinions presented above, and I think that would be both a little too off-topic and, knowing myself, a little too rambling to be of much use to anybody.

At any rate, it's no more possible to "prove" your claim that natural rights can be a useful fiction, which is in just the same manner an interpretation that you can do no more than ask somebody to accept. I have declined to do so, and in the absence of any more convincing interpretation of natural rights, we're pretty much back to square one.
 
One of reasons why in some countries there is strong pro-abortion lobby, is because abortion cliniques yield considerable profits.
Classic pro-choice people are usually not involved in abortion clinics.

Well, long story short, it's because I think that we're have arrived or will soon arrive at a point in time where communism becomes a material necessity.
With all due respect, but communists have been thinking that for more than a century.
 
Well, they call it morally equivalent to murder. And an abortion is premeditated and when done by a doctor in cold blood.

I have to admit taking this side is uncomfortable for me as most of the people I know in real life are far more conventionally big-government pro-life than I am. My exchange with GW a couple pages back should indicate this.

I think you are attributing to most pro-lifers a thought process that they do not share. If I can get somebody to listen to my point of view on the difference here between homicide and murder long enough before their eyes glaze over or they wander off they tend to agree with me. Either that or they fail to see how the distinction is relevant at all. Most of the time they won't engage at all though. Which is typical of both sides and sad.

Back more to my area of interest though. :) Does anyone have any clever insight as to the coming interplay between the LGBT community and adoption/the abortion debate now that society is slowing swinging towards accepting their marriages and families? It would seem to me that at least male gay marriages and Christian pro-lifers share a common interest in promoting adoption as an alternative to abortion. Lesbians might be somewhat less inclined to care since there are sperm banks and they have, well, a uterus(2 of em!). Do you think they'll ever be pragmatic enough to co-operate for what they would deem the common good? The hubris on both sides seems pretty strong right now.
 
With all due respect, but communists have been thinking that for more than a century.
Yes, they have, but very few of those communists understood communism in the same way I do, so the analogy is only a very loose one.
 
Yes, they have, but very few of those communists understood communism in the same way I do, so the analogy is only a very loose one.
They said that too :p
 
I think you are attributing to most pro-lifers a thought process that they do not share.
I was going to drop it after my last comment, but again, I am talking specifically about those who aim to make abortion as cruel and gruesome as possible. It in no way reflects my thoughts on most pro-lifers, just that select group. You for instance do not even come close.

In the spirit of the thread, a civil debate, I noticed we're doing quite well even after I posted a rather provocative position (of course I do realise that, but I don't care since I feel I'll never come close to claiming someone is pro-mass murder). It's just the introduction of those overly emotional argument where debate screeches to a halt.

It would seem to me that at least male gay marriages and Christian pro-lifers share a common interest in promoting adoption as an alternative to abortion. Lesbians might be somewhat less inclined to care since there are sperm banks and they have, well, a uterus(2 of em!). Do you think they'll ever be pragmatic enough to co-operate for what they would deem the common good? The hubris on both sides seems pretty strong right now.
Clever angle. Curious about responses to this. (Hesitant to respond myself, since I've been accused enough already today :p )
 
They said that too :p
I dunno, I'm mostly working from the perspective of communisation theory, and that's very much a recent tendency of Marxist thought. It comes primarily out of the "post-68" French ultra-left, Italian autonomism, post-war left-communism (Socialisme ou Barbarie, Situationism, etc.) and certain anarchisms. It originally developed as a reaction to the collapse of social democracy and the Soviet Union, which I think makes it qualitatively different to all preceding communisms, which were located either in the "pre-classical", "classical" or "social democratic" periods of the working class movement and so possessed a more limited historical perspective.


tl;dr: Shush, you! :p
 
Clever angle. Curious about responses to this. (Hesitant to respond myself, since I've been accused enough already today :p )

Well at least in Illinois, the Catholics just refused to work with newly legalized homosexual marriages and the LGBT lobby just sued their desperately needed manpower out of the foster child system(granted, not quite on-topic as we discussed earlier), so for present I am inclined to think both sides of this particular issue are going to be more inclined to go with full-bore retardation than work for a greater good, but I would be happy if anyone has a more optimistic take.
 
I dunno, I'm mostly working from the perspective of communisation theory, and that's very much a recent tendency of Marxist thought. It comes primarily out of the "post-68" French ultra-left, Italian autonomism, post-war left-communism (Socialisme ou Barbarie, Situationism, etc.) and certain anarchisms. It originally developed as a reaction to the collapse of social democracy and the Soviet Union, which I think makes it qualitatively different to all preceding communisms, which were located either in the "pre-classical", "classical" or "social democratic" periods of the working class movement and so possessed a more limited historical perspective.


tl;dr: Shush, you! :p
:D The last post was only joking anyway, hence the smiley. But thanks for putting your position into perspective anyways.
 
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