Ask A Red: The IVth International

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Azale said:
Any opinions on Robert Vincent Daniels?

I picked up A Documentary History of Communism in Russia and it seems to be heavy with his own interpretations, so I was wondering if any of you had come into contact with his work before.

I have not, but I have read some major-league anti-communist histories of Lenin, Stalin, and the Bolshevik Revolution because they are chock full of data. If he has info, I may be interested, since he spent 32 years as Dean of Soviet studies at UVM, regardless of his angle.
 
There was a specific 'Soviet Studies' chair?
 
^^ Sovietology and Soviet studies was a major field during the Cold War. When the Soviet Union fell all those Sovietologists had to find a new career.

An interesting article in Time Magazine and not one I would have expected from it:
Karl Marx was supposed to be dead and buried. With the collapse of the Soviet Union and China’s Great Leap Forward into capitalism, communism faded into the quaint backdrop of James Bond movies or the deviant mantra of Kim Jong Un. The class conflict that Marx believed determined the course of history seemed to melt away in a prosperous era of free trade and free enterprise. The far-reaching power of globalization, linking the most remote corners of the planet in lucrative bonds of finance, outsourcing and “borderless” manufacturing, offered everybody from Silicon Valley tech gurus to Chinese farm girls ample opportunities to get rich. Asia in the latter decades of the 20th century witnessed perhaps the most remarkable record of poverty alleviation in human history — all thanks to the very capitalist tools of trade, entrepreneurship and foreign investment. Capitalism appeared to be fulfilling its promise — to uplift everyone to new heights of wealth and welfare.

Or so we thought. With the global economy in a protracted crisis, and workers around the world burdened by joblessness, debt and stagnant incomes, Marx’s biting critique of capitalism — that the system is inherently unjust and self-destructive — cannot be so easily dismissed. Marx theorized that the capitalist system would inevitably impoverish the masses as the world’s wealth became concentrated in the hands of a greedy few, causing economic crises and heightened conflict between the rich and working classes. “Accumulation of wealth at one pole is at the same time accumulation of misery, agony of toil, slavery, ignorance, brutality, mental degradation, at the opposite pole,” Marx wrote.

A growing dossier of evidence suggests that he may have been right.
It is sadly all too easy to find statistics that show the rich are getting richer while the middle class and poor are not. A September study from the Economic Policy Institute (EPI) in Washington noted that the median annual earnings of a full-time, male worker in the U.S. in 2011, at $48,202, were smaller than in 1973. Between 1983 and 2010, 74% of the gains in wealth in the U.S. went to the richest 5%, while the bottom 60% suffered a decline, the EPI calculated. No wonder some have given the 19th century German philosopher a second look. In China, the Marxist country that turned its back on Marx, Yu Rongjun was inspired by world events to pen a musical based on Marx’s classic Das Kapital. “You can find reality matches what is described in the book,” says the playwright.

(MORE: Can China Escape the Middle-Income Trap?)

That’s not to say Marx was entirely correct. His “dictatorship of the proletariat” didn’t quite work out as planned. But the consequence of this widening inequality is just what Marx had predicted: class struggle is back. Workers of the world are growing angrier and demanding their fair share of the global economy. From the floor of the U.S. Congress to the streets of Athens to the assembly lines of southern China, political and economic events are being shaped by escalating tensions between capital and labor to a degree unseen since the communist revolutions of the 20th century. How this struggle plays out will influence the direction of global economic policy, the future of the welfare state, political stability in China, and who governs from Washington to Rome. What would Marx say today? “Some variation of: ‘I told you so,’” says Richard Wolff, a Marxist economist at the New School in New York. “The income gap is producing a level of tension that I have not seen in my lifetime.”

Tensions between economic classes in the U.S. are clearly on the rise. Society has been perceived as split between the “99%” (the regular folk, struggling to get by) and the “1%” (the connected and privileged superrich getting richer every day). In a Pew Research Center poll released last year, two-thirds of the respondents believed the U.S. suffered from “strong” or “very strong” conflict between rich and poor, a significant 19-percentage-point increase from 2009, ranking it as the No. 1 division in society.

The heightened conflict has dominated American politics. The partisan battle over how to fix the nation’s budget deficit has been, to a great degree, a class struggle. Whenever President Barack Obama talks of raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans to close the budget gap, conservatives scream he is launching a “class war” against the affluent. Yet the Republicans are engaged in some class struggle of their own. The GOP’s plan for fiscal health effectively hoists the burden of adjustment onto the middle and poorer economic classes through cuts to social services. Obama based a big part of his re-election campaign on characterizing the Republicans as insensitive to the working classes. GOP nominee Mitt Romney, the President charged, had only a “one-point plan” for the U.S. economy — “to make sure that folks at the top play by a different set of rules.”

Amid the rhetoric, though, there are signs that this new American classism has shifted the debate over the nation’s economic policy. Trickle-down economics, which insists that the success of the 1% will benefit the 99%, has come under heavy scrutiny. David Madland, a director at the Center for American Progress, a Washington-based think tank, believes that the 2012 presidential campaign has brought about a renewed focus on rebuilding the middle class, and a search for a different economic agenda to achieve that goal. “The whole way of thinking about the economy is being turned on its head,” he says. “I sense a fundamental shift taking place.”

(MORE: Viewpoint: Why Capping Bankers’ Pay Is a Bad Idea)

The ferocity of the new class struggle is even more pronounced in France. Last May, as the pain of the financial crisis and budget cuts made the rich-poor divide starker to many ordinary citizens, they voted in the Socialist Party’s François Hollande, who had once proclaimed: “I don’t like the rich.” He has proved true to his word. Key to his victory was a campaign pledge to extract more from the wealthy to maintain France’s welfare state. To avoid the drastic spending cuts other policymakers in Europe have instituted to close yawning budget deficits, Hollande planned to hike the income tax rate to as high as 75%. Though that idea got shot down by the country’s Constitutional Council, Hollande is scheming ways to introduce a similar measure. At the same time, Hollande has tilted government back toward the common man. He reversed an unpopular decision by his predecessor to increase France’s retirement age by lowering it back down to the original 60 for some workers. Many in France want Hollande to go even further. “Hollande’s tax proposal has to be the first step in the government acknowledging capitalism in its current form has become so unfair and dysfunctional it risks imploding without deep reform,” says Charlotte Boulanger, a development official for NGOs.

His tactics, however, are sparking a backlash from the capitalist class. Mao Zedong might have insisted that “political power grows out of the barrel of a gun,” but in a world where das kapital is more and more mobile, the weapons of class struggle have changed. Rather than paying out to Hollande, some of France’s wealthy are moving out — taking badly needed jobs and investment with them. Jean-Émile Rosenblum, founder of online retailer Pixmania.com, is setting up both his life and new venture in the U.S., where he feels the climate is far more hospitable for businessmen. “Increased class conflict is a normal consequence of any economic crisis, but the political exploitation of that has been demagogic and discriminatory,” Rosenblum says. “Rather than relying on (entrepreneurs) to create the companies and jobs we need, France is hounding them away.”

The rich-poor divide is perhaps most volatile in China. Ironically, Obama and the newly installed President of Communist China, Xi Jinping, face the same challenge. Intensifying class struggle is not just a phenomenon of the slow-growth, debt-ridden industrialized world. Even in rapidly expanding emerging markets, tension between rich and poor is becoming a primary concern for policymakers. Contrary to what many disgruntled Americans and Europeans believe, China has not been a workers’ paradise. The “iron rice bowl” — the Mao-era practice of guaranteeing workers jobs for life — faded with Maoism, and during the reform era, workers have had few rights. Even though wage income in China’s cities is growing substantially, the rich-poor gap is extremely wide. Another Pew study revealed that nearly half of the Chinese surveyed consider the rich-poor divide a very big problem, while 8 out of 10 agreed with the proposition that the “rich just get richer while the poor get poorer” in China.

(MORE: Is Asia Heading for a Debt Crisis?)

Resentment is reaching a boiling point in China’s factory towns. “People from the outside see our lives as very bountiful, but the real life in the factory is very different,” says factory worker Peng Ming in the southern industrial enclave of Shenzhen. Facing long hours, rising costs, indifferent managers and often late pay, workers are beginning to sound like true proletariat. “The way the rich get money is through exploiting the workers,” says Guan Guohau, another Shenzhen factory employee. “Communism is what we are looking forward to.” Unless the government takes greater action to improve their welfare, they say, the laborers will become more and more willing to take action themselves. “Workers will organize more,” Peng predicts. “All the workers should be united.”

That may already be happening. Tracking the level of labor unrest in China is difficult, but experts believe it has been on the rise. A new generation of factory workers — better informed than their parents, thanks to the Internet — has become more outspoken in its demands for better wages and working conditions. So far, the government’s response has been mixed. Policymakers have raised minimum wages to boost incomes, toughened up labor laws to give workers more protection, and in some cases, allowed them to strike. But the government still discourages independent worker activism, often with force. Such tactics have left China’s proletariat distrustful of their proletarian dictatorship. “The government thinks more about the companies than us,” says Guan. If Xi doesn’t reform the economy so the ordinary Chinese benefit more from the nation’s growth, he runs the risk of fueling social unrest.

Marx would have predicted just such an outcome. As the proletariat woke to their common class interests, they’d overthrow the unjust capitalist system and replace it with a new, socialist wonderland. Communists “openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions,” Marx wrote. “The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains.” There are signs that the world’s laborers are increasingly impatient with their feeble prospects. Tens of thousands have taken to the streets of cities like Madrid and Athens, protesting stratospheric unemployment and the austerity measures that are making matters even worse.

So far, though, Marx’s revolution has yet to materialize. Workers may have common problems, but they aren’t banding together to resolve them. Union membership in the U.S., for example, has continued to decline through the economic crisis, while the Occupy Wall Street movement fizzled. Protesters, says Jacques Rancière, an expert in Marxism at the University of Paris, aren’t aiming to replace capitalism, as Marx had forecast, but merely to reform it. “We’re not seeing protesting classes call for an overthrow or destruction of socioeconomic systems in place,” he explains. “What class conflict is producing today are calls to fix systems so they become more viable and sustainable for the long run by redistributing the wealth created.”

(MORE: Is It Time to Stop Green-Lighting Red-Light Cameras?)

Despite such calls, however, current economic policy continues to fuel class tensions. In China, senior officials have paid lip service to narrowing the income gap but in practice have dodged the reforms (fighting corruption, liberalizing the finance sector) that could make that happen. Debt-burdened governments in Europe have slashed welfare programs even as joblessness has risen and growth sagged. In most cases, the solution chosen to repair capitalism has been more capitalism. Policymakers in Rome, Madrid and Athens are being pressured by bondholders to dismantle protection for workers and further deregulate domestic markets. Owen Jones, the British author of Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class, calls this “a class war from above.”

There are few to stand in the way. The emergence of a global labor market has defanged unions throughout the developed world. The political left, dragged rightward since the free-market onslaught of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, has not devised a credible alternative course. “Virtually all progressive or leftist parties contributed at some point to the rise and reach of financial markets, and rolling back of welfare systems in order to prove they were capable of reform,” Rancière notes. “I’d say the prospects of Labor or Socialists parties or governments anywhere significantly reconfiguring — much less turning over — current economic systems to be pretty faint.”

That leaves open a scary possibility: that Marx not only diagnosed capitalism’s flaws but also the outcome of those flaws. If policymakers don’t discover new methods of ensuring fair economic opportunity, the workers of the world may just unite. Marx may yet have his revenge.
Read more: http://business.time.com/2013/03/25...-struggle-is-shaping-the-world/#ixzz2ObsIbjOK
 
Yes, you don't expect Time to bash capitalism.

But one correction is, of course, that, while everyone had the chance to be rich, this everyone doesn't mean 'all rich at the same time'.
 
ace's time article again raise one of my bugbears, that if talking about Marx, abroad understanding can be reached even among capitalist/leftist views but as soon as Marxist/Leninist is broached, Marx's writing are forgotten, at least on the capitalist side of the argument

so my often rephrased question is, does this linking actually hold back the advancement of Marxist thought and action...
 
Graffito said:
ace's time article again raise one of my bugbears, that if talking about Marx, abroad understanding can be reached even among capitalist/leftist views but as soon as Marxist/Leninist is broached, Marx's writing are forgotten, at least on the capitalist side of the argument

so my often rephrased question is, does this linking actually hold back the advancement of Marxist thought and action...

No. The only thing holding back the advancement of Marxist thought and action is the strength of the Revolutionary movement. It is the circumstances of history and not bourgeoisie appeal that determines the course of action of the revoluionary movement. In the 1930s, CPUSA was at the height of it power and popularity, they did not make a revolution, but instead they joined FDR's administration an the industrial organizing of the CIO. The thanks they got was that Truman, the next president, threw all the commies out of the government and made it illegal for communists to organize in unions.
 
I'm sure you're both entirely right about the importance of critique in the practical problem of motivating actual political change. I do, on the other hand, wonder whether keeping the label of 'marxist' or 'communist' is the best marketing ploy in this task, given the unfortunate associations that (mainly wrongly) cling to these terms. I suppose that this is an empirical question that couldn't be resolved here.
The whole question of "marketing" depends on what you're trying to achieve. A lot of post-war theory is pretty sceptical of the traditional party-form, mass or vanguard, so the question of what we call ourselves isn't all that relevant outside of our incestuous little milieus. If class is what counts, then the significant organisations are class-based, not idealogical or even in the conventional sense political; soviets not parties, as they put it at Kronstad.
 
Compare and contrast: Theory of Justice and Mill's On Liberty. There is a world of difference between them. Moreover, the theory of justice Rawls espouses is aimed precisely at extinguishing (morally objectionable) division between the best and the worst off. Part and parcel of this, Rawls explicitly acknowledges, is destroying disequilibriums in power.

There is a big difference in the avowed goals, but not on the methods. The problem with Rawls is that he, like Mill, still thinks that justice can be achieved without conflict. Or, as communists put it, some kind of revolution. Too bad: it looks like that is taking a damn long time! Capitalism has its cycles but without forcing open conflict it is very much resilient. It keeps resetting to exploitation and no amount of hopeful theories of justice will prevent that.
I once stared reading his famous book, a theory of justice. Didn't finish, too much philosophy and no action. Might as well read the Bible to learn that everything will be right in the Kingdom of Heaven when everyone is nice and ethical! Tell me, have I missed some portion where he proposes a practical programme to change the world?

Socialists indeed not have one practical program. They've had many. A different kind of problem... Rawls appeals with some ideal to be achieved under the present social institutions which we have tried and know to never led to such ideal. Socialists at least squabble about what different institutions should be created and keep trying to change the present ones. By trial and error at least they may one day achieve something good. Rawls came across, in what I read at least, as another apologist of the status quo.
 
So you think Marx's distinctive contribution to political thought is the idea of violent revolution?
 
So you think Marx's distinctive contribution to political thought is the idea of violent revolution?

I would say the awareness of an inevitable conflict of interests that cannot be solved unless the present institutions are totally replaced. That such conflict would not be solved peacefully was not a conclusion he reached before the bloody repression of the Paris Commune, if he reached it at all. His disagreements with the social-democrats increased after that event. I'm sure that there are people who know more about Marx specifically and can comment on that.
 
So you think Marx's distinctive contribution to political thought is the idea of violent revolution?
I don't think that the distinction between "violent" and "non-violent" is one that Marx considers to any real extent, or that even one that makes much sense within the terms of a Marxist framework. It assumes a basically liberal outlook, by which the routine, structural violence that underlies any sort of political authority is through the quality of "legitimacy" somehow transformed into something other than violence, and that's an outlook which Marx simply did not possess.
 
I'm not sure I understand you, Traitorfish, you sometimes are too convoluted.

But I think you're saying that Marx doesn't say that legitimate violence stops being violent.
 
The opposite, actually. He's saying that the difference between "normal, every day" violence* and revolutionary violence didn't exist in Marx's mind, and is mainly a liberal construct.

I think.

*Violence here meaning also the threat of violence, as in, do as we say or we'll harm you, which is a part of any social structure that includes property.

So basically, the capitalists get to be violent toward us in their enforcement of their philosophy onto society, so we get to do the same back, and for you to condemn one and not the other is hypocritical. To the Marxist, what makes our cause's violence justifiable is its egalitarian, liberalizing underpinnings. It's not violence to enforce minority rule, it's violence to destroy the capacity for institutional oppression. Or good is not nice.
 
The opposite, actually. He's saying that the difference between "normal, every day" violence* and revolutionary violence didn't exist in Marx's mind, and is mainly a liberal construct.

I think.
That's the jist of it. The assertion of political authority is always a violent process, whether it's routine or exceptional, and whether those committing it are justified or unjustified. For a revolution to be authentically "non-violent", it would have to refuse any assertion of political authority, arguably refuse politics as such, which can't be claimed of any of the events that we hear described as "non-violent revolutions".
 
*gist

But what about really nonviolent movements, such as Gandhi's which included hunger strikes? Well, I can understand it if you say that 'do what I want or I shall die and you'll be responsible' is violence (by way of threats), but still…
 
Oops. :lol:

But what about really nonviolent movements, such as Gandhi's which included hunger strikes? Well, I can understand it if you say that 'do what I want or I shall die and you'll be responsible' is violence (by way of threats), but still…
Non-violently asking others to do violence on your behalf can't really be described as "non-violence" in anything more than a tactical sense.
 
I have been semi-lurking on my tablet, but I wanted to address some of the questions and statements of the past day or so, as I have strong feelings about the concepts both the questioners and the answerers have posted:

I do, on the other hand, wonder whether keeping the label of 'marxist' or 'communist' is the best marketing ploy in this task, given the unfortunate associations that (mainly wrongly) cling to these terms. I suppose that this is an empirical question that couldn't be resolved here.

Hence, my position and my organizations' positions on keeping the Party clandestine -- as opposed to "secret." That is, everyone knows there IS a secret, but clandestine refers to the fact that the ones who know about the Party and its avowed goals are those who should know -- the people who learn through revolutionary practice and agree with the goals of the organization. That is important, because at that point, when you have party members running organizations that are open-ended, they can attract a wide array of people interested in solving the problems those organizations are designed to solve. An organization that runs free health care but at the same time fights for comprehensive health care for all DOES what it says -- it's just run by people who see that organization as part of a bigger revolutionary movement. As others see that, they learn of Marxism-Leninism, etc. It is a process and that process is not helped by simply telling people you are a "Communist," because it will sometimes drive people away who simply want to help medic ally-indigent workers get to the doctor.

It is precisely because of the negative connotations the bourgeoisie has put on the terms "socialism," "communism," "Marxism," etc, that this thread was designed to help alleviate.

However, in the case of building a movement, the only effective means of attack that the bourgeois institutions of government have is by advertising these open-ended organizations as being communist or socialist -- which they are not, by the fact that they are not made up exclusively by communists or socialists. They ARE revolutionary, and by demonstrating through their good works HOW a government can run, people see the advantages of socialism without being lectured to or having to read the entire volume of Marx to understand the problems.

Here's a great article I found this morning about wealth and income inequality:

http://www.alternet.org/economy/five-ugly-extremes-inequality-america-contrasts-will-drop-your-chin-floor

I'm not sure what to think about progressives. On the one hand, they can be useful allies, providing valuable support in more concrete arguments, and they're more willing than us, for the most part, to dive into the dirt with conservatives. On the other hand, they've got that "so close, yet so far" problem, of more or less grasping the moral imperatives of socialists, but still insisting that the liberal solutions are worthwhile. This hints to me that perhaps they don't have as good a grasp on things as we might think, given their rhetoric. After all, a defender of capitalism who unabashedly triumphs the virtues of selfishness and inequality, and attacks the democratic foundation of liberal society, is in every way square with his beliefs. He understands his place and social role, and the shape of that which he defends. There is no masquerading, he is what he is. But in many liberals, by which I also mean classical liberals who utilize messages of egalitarianism in their defense of capitalism, and particularly in progressives, I see a cognitive dissonance that shows that they don't truly understand what the words they're using mean, or what the ideology their defending entails. A great example is the above article's proposed solution: after demonstrating the incredible wealth and power that a very small number of people have, they insist on a solution that can be easily quashed by the power they just proved these people have. They play an unfair game by the rules, with the expectation that by playing fair against people who the rules favor and who are willing to go still further and break those rules, and imagine that they can win.

What causes this conflict of idea and reality? Is it an inability to think outside the box they've been taught exists, or does it betray more ulterior motives? My question essentially becomes, then: are progressives simply misguided socialists, or are they misguided liberals? Because their beliefs are so similar to ours, are they deserving of less of our attention so that we can focus on bringing more people to the Left, or because their beliefs are so close yet still so far, are they deserving of more of our attention so that we can bring them "all the way" over?

Your thoughts, fellow Reds!

Cheezy, you are wise beyond your years. Plekhanov once said of Lenin "We face the liberals, Ilich, but you turn your back to them."

The answer to this question is not so simple. However, my thoughts are as follows:

First of all, since I work in open ends to the masses, I meet progressives all the time and I meet conservatives, too. Since the organizations I work with, per above, DO the things they are set out to do (provide material relief while teaching workers to become leadership to fight for control over their working conditions) you run the gamut from the "I want to do good things for poor people," to "I'll show up for the picket line." The beauty of this type of organization is that no matter what they do, these people are assisting the cause of the proletarian class struggle. We tel them so, but not in the current hackneyed formula, but in a way that makes the goals desirable to them such that they support it. This includes members of the working class and those unable to work, to members of the national bourgeoisie, whose interest is best served when working people have money in their pockets to spend (the fifth star in the Chinese flag represents the National Bourgeoisie who became part of the revolutionary struggle from early on).

The first rule of thumb is that you only talk to "buyers," the people who agree with the mass programme you are putting forward (i.e. the local manifestation of the fight against the existing power structure) and the way to go about it. Those who don't agree at first may come back, so I don't burn any bridges.

The second rule of thumb is that you don't refuse help from anyone willing to give it without strings attached -- this advances your cause and educates them to it, also.

Mainly, though, you are there to put a class in power -- no other interest is served, because the masses will accept you or reject you, and (hopefully) take over your organization from you! I am up front about this, but not rhetorical -- you have to always speak to the location of the problem, your solution and get their agreement on both.

I have recruited liberal, progressives as well as Reagan Republicans -- socialism is a very appealing system once you've explained it.

EDIT: see this, Chapter IV, section "C." of Lenin's What Is To Be Done? for a take on the subject of who we can organize and win over.

So you think Marx's distinctive contribution to political thought is the idea of violent revolution?

I would say the awareness of an inevitable conflict of interests that cannot be solved unless the present institutions are totally replaced. That such conflict would not be solved peacefully was not a conclusion he reached before the bloody repression of the Paris Commune, if he reached it at all. His disagreements with the social-democrats increased after that event. I'm sure that there are people who know more about Marx specifically and can comment on that.

Marx did not specify the specific means to the end, but his first revolutionary experience was the revolutions of 1848, not very peaceful at all. Lenin did not dismiss the idea of a peaceful revolution as a transition from Capitalism to Socialism, but he said these opportunities were few and far between.

No one is implying "violence" as an end. In the US, violence as a tactic is out of the question because not only does it turn the population against you, the adversary is better armed and better trained than you are. I do not use violence in my work, nor is it a part of any of the work I have engaged in.

The other side, however, excessively uses violence as a means to its end, and the best way to end that is by ending their rule. The sooner done, the less damage.

*gist

But what about really nonviolent movements, such as Gandhi's which included hunger strikes? Well, I can understand it if you say that 'do what I want or I shall die and you'll be responsible' is violence (by way of threats), but still…

Well, it is, but millions of people died during the Gandhi years -- and he did not do any of it. The self-inflicted violence notwithstanding, the British inflicted terrible violence on the Indian people. The hunger strikes I engage in are to starve myself of personal bourgeoisie-inspired proclivities, starve myself of the hope of personal gain at the expense of others, and starve myself of the notion I have to accept what the bourgeoisie are doing to this world.

In short, the question is not violence or non-violence, but "What is the best way to bring about the revolution with the fewest lives lost.

Right now, where I am, that is NOT violence perpetrated by the revolutionary movement. Right now, the violence is being brought down upon us, and it is the duty of the revolutionary movement to strikes blows at the enemy in ways they can't strike back, and do our best to prevent the battering of our class by the adversary.
 
The whole question of "marketing" depends on what you're trying to achieve. A lot of post-war theory is pretty sceptical of the traditional party-form, mass or vanguard, so the question of what we call ourselves isn't all that relevant outside of our incestuous little milieus. If class is what counts, then the significant organisations are class-based, not idealogical or even in the conventional sense political; soviets not parties, as they put it at Kronstad.
Are there any explicitly anti-political strains of post-war theory?
 
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in the post-'68 ultra-left that can be understood as anti-political, insofar as it calls for an absolute break with bourgeois politics. There's a lot of disagreement about the semantics of the term "anti-political" (which more or less boiling down to both sides accusing the other of failing to distinguishing between "anti-political" and "apolitical"), but most of them share a rejection of the state as a terrain for struggle.
 
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