[RD] Ask a Theologian V

Yes, but it seems glaringly obvious. How can a philosopher be ignorant of the entire field of metaethics? And why do his opponents seem to not take him to task on this? I smell refried beans.

William Lane Craig is a little difficult: opinions differ about whether he should be taken seriously as a philosopher at all. On the one hand he certainly is a professional philosopher and I think his arguments for the Kalam cosmological proof are worth considering (though they don't work). On the other, he comes out with absurd arguments like this one. How can he be ignorant of metaethics? Well, I would guess that he isn't, but he thinks that the only plausible metaethical theory is divine command theory. That's certainly an eccentric position but not necessarily an ignorant one. Why don't his opponents take him to task on this? I imagine because they don't think it's worth the bother.

Well, it appears (and this is just based on an article from Tabletmag) that certain Christians regarded the OT as primitive and inferior to the NT. That's why biblical higher criticism came about from protestant scholars.

I don't know who or what you're referring to here or why this inference makes sense. Biblical higher criticism applies to both testaments, and it always has, from the late eighteenth century onwards.

Couldn't the argument be made that, as God is the creator of everything, reasons can only be indirectly connected to God's commands and design of the universe, rather then independent of it?

I mean, I think it's fair to say that independent of God's commands torture can't be thought of as immoral, because independent of God's commands torture couldn't be thought of.

I'm not sure this makes sense to me. In the absence of God's commands I could certainly performs actions that we would call torture (whether or not I would call them that in that situation). Why couldn't I think of doing that in the absence of God's commands? And if it were true that torture would be impossible and even unthinkable in the absence of God's commands, wouldn't it follow that it would be better for God not to command anything, thereby making immoral actions impossible?

But couldn't you also say that because any sort of argument "independent" of God's commands would still be drawing on God's design and God's will? We may observe things and the nature of man and the nature of torture and draw from that that torture is immoral, but that is because god has designed man in such a way, according to his will.

Yes, and I think this is a more Catholic view of things: God determines morality not directly but indirectly through his deciding to create the world in a certain way, including his decisions about what's beneficial to us and harmful to us. So, for example, punching someone in the face is wrong because it's harmful, and feeding the poor is right because it's helpful. Nevertheless, the imperative that it's right to do beneficial things and wrong to do harmful things still needs to be explained. If it's not explained then God's will can ultimately be appealed to as the explanation for why this action is beneficial and that one is harmful, but not as the explanation for why this is a moral distinction rather than a purely descriptive one.

So it seems to me that when someone says under DCT theory, God "could make" torture moral, it seems that argument requires a clear explanation of what God making toture moral would entail, because it seems to me that as it's usually phrased, it's a matter of God's will trumping God's will. "Can God will things to be immoral in conflict with his design" starts sounding like "Can God make a boulder so big he can't lift it?"

I don't see why there's a conflict here. If God decrees that torture is immoral, how does that conflict with his design decisions?

Plotinus, how do theologians reconcile Christianity and evolution if original sin is necessary for Jesus's salvation?

I think you're confusing original sin with original righteousness. "Original sin" at its simplest means the mere fact of everyone having sinned; or it refers to concupiscence, that is, the (possibly irresistible) tendency or urge to sin. There's no contradiction between this and evolution. On the contrary, evolution arguably makes it easier to understand why we might suffer from concupiscence, as many of our sinful urges could be explained as having served evolutionary beneficial purposes in the past. E.g. if our ancestors hadn't tended to get angry and violent at times, they wouldn't have survived.

No, the point of original sin there is that it means nobody can be blameless, even in principle, i.e. all people are tainted by Adam and Eve's actions. It leads directly to the idea that people need divine intervention to be absolved of that taint, which which justifies Jesus's sacrifice-for-redemption and underlies pretty much all of Christianity.

No, the doctrine of original sin doesn't mean that no-one can be blameless even in principle. Orthodox Christianity holds that there have been people who have been blameless, most notably Jesus himself, and if you're Catholic, the Virgin Mary. And, perhaps, others such as Enoch. And yet they are human beings just as we are. The traditional doctrine states only that "fallen" humanity suffers from original sin, not humanity as whole; and even there it's a bit uncertain, given that some theologians have thought that Jesus's humanity was "fallen" though sinless.

And one can still talk about all of this without talking about Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve are, if you like, an explanation for why there is original sin. The story of the Fall is not identical with the doctrine of original sin. One could believe in original sin and believe in other explanations for why it's there. Most believers in evolution would probably do so. You don't have to believe in "original righteousness" or a Fall at all to believe in original sin.

However, it's still possible to believe in evolution and believe that there was a historical Fall. For example, some Christians think that the story of Adam and Eve in Eden is literally true, but that Adam and Eve were simply the first modern humans, having evolved from other creatures as science tells us. They may have been the first morally significant humans rather than the first anatomically modern ones.

Alternatively one can regard Adam and Eve as an allegory or metaphor or something, and still believe that there was a first sin. In fact any believer in evolution who accepts the notion of "sin" at all, and who thinks that non-human animals can't really be said to "sin" (as seems plausible), must think there was a first one. At some point in evolutionary history, some hominid with the first glimmerings of moral awareness did something that it thought to be wrong. I've even seen attempts to re-think the Fall along these terms. Perhaps this first sinner inspired others to do the same thing, and so primitive hominid society fell into a pattern of sin which it passed down through the centuries.

Why are we over-achievers? Why do we resist the notion we need an outside "help" source? Why have we replaced God with a theory that we have evolved?

Because the theory of evolution is supported by vast amounts of evidence and explains the phenomena very well, while the claim that God exists is not supported by good evidence, and it doesn't explain very much.

But in any case, you're wrong to talk about the theory of evolution "replacing" God, because plenty of people believe in both.
 
I'm not sure this makes sense to me. In the absence of God's commands I could certainly performs actions that we would call torture (whether or not I would call them that in that situation). Why couldn't I think of doing that in the absence of God's commands? And if it were true that torture would be impossible and even unthinkable in the absence of God's commands, wouldn't it follow that it would be better for God not to command anything, thereby making immoral actions impossible?

I do not think that it is possible to do away with a thousand years of western Christian indoctrination. That is the source of your conflict between Divine command and what Christianity is. Christianity has been relegated to attempting to live a "sinless" life, but that seems to be the wrong point of it's existence.

It is possible to live a moral life in the absence of God's command. However it may be difficult to determine a strict meter, if one did not have a ruler pre-imposed with a set amount of markings on it. There are morals that exist out there that only come into play, if they are needed. People only see the Law, because someone took the time to write it down. Most people do not have any problems pointing out the law and even demand that it be kept. Most conflict comes from implementing punishment, and humans forget that there is actually nothing that can be done to remedy the human condition.

Yes, and I think this is a more Catholic view of things: God determines morality not directly but indirectly through his deciding to create the world in a certain way, including his decisions about what's beneficial to us and harmful to us. So, for example, punching someone in the face is wrong because it's harmful, and feeding the poor is right because it's helpful. Nevertheless, the imperative that it's right to do beneficial things and wrong to do harmful things still needs to be explained. If it's not explained then God's will can ultimately be appealed to as the explanation for why this action is beneficial and that one is harmful, but not as the explanation for why this is a moral distinction rather than a purely descriptive one.

The only explanation we have and (probably need) is the point of knowledge. Morals are useless in a vacuum, and even more so if they cannot be applied. However people need to be willing to change, if the morals presented will work at all. When it comes to comparing with natural law, I am not keen on the idea of calling a default state a law. A law is a parameter set to change a condition, not establish a new condition. One cannot use nature as an excuse to behave. One has to set a standard to change the natural way things are to a better state or condition. If humans did not know they were "sinning", what they do would seem natural and right. Some would just argue that the natural state is the law that keeps humans from being divine.

What proof is there that humans can evolve to a divine state, as opposed to evolve from a divine state into a more natural one? Is that not one of the points of the doctrine of satan, that satan did not agree with how God did things and believed there was a better way?

I think you're confusing original sin with original righteousness. "Original sin" at its simplest means the mere fact of everyone having sinned; or it refers to concupiscence, that is, the (possibly irresistible) tendency or urge to sin. There's no contradiction between this and evolution. On the contrary, evolution arguably makes it easier to understand why we might suffer from concupiscence, as many of our sinful urges could be explained as having served evolutionary beneficial purposes in the past. E.g. if our ancestors hadn't tended to get angry and violent at times, they wouldn't have survived.

No, the doctrine of original sin doesn't mean that no-one can be blameless even in principle. Orthodox Christianity holds that there have been people who have been blameless, most notably Jesus himself, and if you're Catholic, the Virgin Mary. And, perhaps, others such as Enoch. And yet they are human beings just as we are. The traditional doctrine states only that "fallen" humanity suffers from original sin, not humanity as whole; and even there it's a bit uncertain, given that some theologians have thought that Jesus's humanity was "fallen" though sinless.

And one can still talk about all of this without talking about Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve are, if you like, an explanation for why there is original sin. The story of the Fall is not identical with the doctrine of original sin. One could believe in original sin and believe in other explanations for why it's there. Most believers in evolution would probably do so. You don't have to believe in "original righteousness" or a Fall at all to believe in original sin.

If there is a God though, would not the Bible fit in totality and if we only took a portion of it, then we may as well make up our own way and call it something else? We believe in evolution and that is our guide. Why try to call it by the same term as biblical and of God?

However, it's still possible to believe in evolution and believe that there was a historical Fall. For example, some Christians think that the story of Adam and Eve in Eden is literally true, but that Adam and Eve were simply the first modern humans, having evolved from other creatures as science tells us. They may have been the first morally significant humans rather than the first anatomically modern ones.

Alternatively one can regard Adam and Eve as an allegory or metaphor or something, and still believe that there was a first sin. In fact any believer in evolution who accepts the notion of "sin" at all, and who thinks that non-human animals can't really be said to "sin" (as seems plausible), must think there was a first one. At some point in evolutionary history, some hominid with the first glimmerings of moral awareness did something that it thought to be wrong. I've even seen attempts to re-think the Fall along these terms. Perhaps this first sinner inspired others to do the same thing, and so primitive hominid society fell into a pattern of sin which it passed down through the centuries.

Because the theory of evolution is supported by vast amounts of evidence and explains the phenomena very well, while the claim that God exists is not supported by good evidence, and it doesn't explain very much.

But in any case, you're wrong to talk about the theory of evolution "replacing" God, because plenty of people believe in both.

It is possible to believe that the sun once revolved around earth and now it doesn't, but does that make sense? Is reality what people believe and hold in their minds? Or is reality what actually exist whether we believe it or not?
 
However, it's still possible to believe in evolution and believe that there was a historical Fall. For example, some Christians think that the story of Adam and Eve in Eden is literally true, but that Adam and Eve were simply the first modern humans, having evolved from other creatures as science tells us. They may have been the first morally significant humans rather than the first anatomically modern ones.

Alternatively one can regard Adam and Eve as an allegory or metaphor or something, and still believe that there was a first sin. In fact any believer in evolution who accepts the notion of "sin" at all, and who thinks that non-human animals can't really be said to "sin" (as seems plausible), must think there was a first one. At some point in evolutionary history, some hominid with the first glimmerings of moral awareness did something that it thought to be wrong. I've even seen attempts to re-think the Fall along these terms. Perhaps this first sinner inspired others to do the same thing, and so primitive hominid society fell into a pattern of sin which it passed down through the centuries.

...

Because the theory of evolution is supported by vast amounts of evidence and explains the phenomena very well, while the claim that God exists is not supported by good evidence, and it doesn't explain very much.

But in any case, you're wrong to talk about the theory of evolution "replacing" God, because plenty of people believe in both.

People who think evolution 'replaces' God merely show a lack of understanding of it. Similarly, there is no such thing as a 'belief' in evolution, just as there's no such thing as a 'belief' in gravity. Whether one accepts its consequences has little effect on the reality of either. Evolution does not explain the universe simply because that is not its subject. So any opposition such as evolution versus God or evolution versus creationism is a false one. They are entirely unrelated topics, let alone being opposed.

One might ask someone who claims not to 'believe' in evolution: Do you believe in dogs? That's not a joke: 10,000 years ago there were no dogs. Nowadays there are dozens of dog 'races', and dogs are a separate species from wolves. Yet all dog 'races' descend from wolves originally; they are an entirely human-created new species. (And that's just one simple example.)
 
People who think evolution 'replaces' God merely show a lack of understanding of it. Similarly, there is no such thing as a 'belief' in evolution, just as there's no such thing as a 'belief' in gravity.

That's true only if you take "believe" in a limited and rather specialised sense. I'd take "believe" to mean simply "think is true", so it would apply to anything you think is true, including scientific facts. I would certainly say that I "believe" in gravity. At any rate, this is just a quibble about words - whether you think the word "belief" is appropriate to refer to people's attitude towards evolution, there are certainly people who think it happens and other people who think it doesn't, and that's the important point.

One might ask someone who claims not to 'believe' in evolution: Do you believe in dogs? That's not a joke: 10,000 years ago there were no dogs. Nowadays there are dozens of dog 'races', and dogs are a separate species from wolves. Yet all dog 'races' descend from wolves originally; they are an entirely human-created new species. (And that's just one simple example.)

That's not correct - dogs are classified as a sub-species of wolf (Canis lupus familiaris), not as a distinct species. A person who doesn't believe in evolution could deny that dogs have anything to do with wolves and say that God created them alongside all other animals (and did so a lot more recently than 10,000 years ago). Or she could accept that dogs are a subspecies of wolf that came about thanks to humanity's domestication of the wolf, but say that this is an example of "micro-evolution", i.e. minor changes within an otherwise stable phenotype, and that "macro-evolution", i.e. one species changing entirely into another, is a quite different matter.

She'd be wrong to say that, since there's no real difference between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" other than degree, which means that if you have enough of the former you get the latter. But still, while it's not hard to refute creationism, I think you need to do a little more than just point to dogs.
 
Plotinus said:
I'm not sure this makes sense to me. In the absence of God's commands I could certainly performs actions that we would call torture (whether or not I would call them that in that situation). Why couldn't I think of doing that in the absence of God's commands? And if it were true that torture would be impossible and even unthinkable in the absence of God's commands, wouldn't it follow that it would be better for God not to command anything, thereby making immoral actions impossible?
Well, it would be unthinkable because you wouldn't have a brain to do the thinking in the first place. But even if there was a mind and just an independent mind, that mind wouldn't ever know what a person is, and therefore wouldn't be able to know certain facts about what a person is, such as the ability to feel pain, or anguish. All of these things are only knowable because of the exact contours of how god has designed the universe, in order to produce us, as we are.

I don't see why there's a conflict here. If God decrees that torture is immoral, how does that conflict with his design decisions?
Like I said, that depends quote a bit about what we imagine God "decreeing" that torture is immoral entails, and ambiguity on this point is where a good deal of trouble with DCT involves.

Now, let's assume for the purposes of this argument, that we are accurately deriving moral facts from experience.

Now, if we can do this, we can only come to these moral facts through the peculiar nature of of what we experience. To build on the example of torture, as a general rule, we can understand torture as unethical because of very specific facts we can ascertain or reasonably believe about reality: including the pain it causes, the tendency to produce further evils in the victim and perpetrator and most importantly, the inherent dignity of man (which we can derive from other facts about existence). All of this, so far, is still an inherent part of God's creation.

The key question then, is whether ethical facts derive from God's design of the universe as an incidental part of the design, or an integral part of it.

I think most Christians would probably believe these moral facts to be an inherent part of God's scheme for this world, rather than an unwelcome byproduct.

If this is true, we can't talk of the ethical facts we derive from experience as independent of God's will. God designed the facts of the universe to include certain moral facts, as was his intention.

Which brings us by "What does it mean when god decrees something ethical?" Do we mean that god simply says such a thing is so, but nothing about the universe is altered in any way?

If that is the case, we've run into a problem of God having two wills: He has willed that certain ethical facts be in place, as an integrated and possibly even logically necessary part of his universe, and then he has also willed that exactly contrary moral facts also are binding.

It creates two wills of God: One the creator, who infused this universe with evident moral laws at it's design, who's will is continued to be made manifest by the functioning of the universe according to his design, and the continued existence of his moral facts through the existence of his creation. The other the proclamator, who issues a decree
running contrary to the will of the creator, and standing athwart his design and his moral laws.

If moral facts are really facts, and we can derive these facts from the nature of the Universe, the only plausible way for God's will to be logically contrary would be if these moral facts were an unpleasant accident of his creation that he does not intend to exist. And I think that's a very shaky proposition.


On the other hand, these moral facts can't really be spoken about as "apart from God's commands." If you're saying torture is abhorrent "apart from God's command" you can't base it on anything, because any facts that exist are there and arranged as god willed it. You are simply drawing on god's command, given in the creation and design of the universe.


At least, that's how it seems to me. Sorry for this not being a question really. Is there anyone else who seems to think the derivation of moral facts from the universe is entirely compatible with DCT?
 
That's true only if you take "believe" in a limited and rather specialised sense. I'd take "believe" to mean simply "think is true", so it would apply to anything you think is true, including scientific facts. I would certainly say that I "believe" in gravity. At any rate, this is just a quibble about words - whether you think the word "belief" is appropriate to refer to people's attitude towards evolution, there are certainly people who think it happens and other people who think it doesn't, and that's the important point.

I'm afraid you are somewhat missing the point: 'belief' or disbelief in evolution is commonly used by opposers of the 'theory' of evolution. Whether one 'believes' the French revolution took place has as little effect on it as whether one 'believes' in evolution. It is not a doctrine, but established fact.

That's not correct - dogs are classified as a sub-species of wolf (Canis lupus familiaris), not as a distinct species. A person who doesn't believe in evolution could deny that dogs have anything to do with wolves and say that God created them alongside all other animals (and did so a lot more recently than 10,000 years ago).

While the first is, strictly speaking correct, without domestication there would be no dogs at all. I fail to see how God enters into that. (I should also note that dogs were probably domesticated quite a lot earlier than 10,000 years ago.)

Or she could accept that dogs are a subspecies of wolf that came about thanks to humanity's domestication of the wolf, but say that this is an example of "micro-evolution", i.e. minor changes within an otherwise stable phenotype, and that "macro-evolution", i.e. one species changing entirely into another, is a quite different matter.

I am aware of this 'subtle' distinction made by evolution-deniers. It does not change the reality that all domesticated animals were created by man, not God. Man could only do so because of evolution. If species are forever unchanging one cannot breed subspecies.

As for 'macro-evolution': dinosaurs.*

She'd be wrong to say that, since there's no real difference between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" other than degree, which means that if you have enough of the former you get the latter. But still, while it's not hard to refute creationism, I think you need to do a little more than just point to dogs.

I disagree. But since you point it out, I did so anyway. The point is, there is no evidence whatsoever to refute evolution. Yet certain people claim to disbelieve it, inspite of all the evidence in support of it. One cannot argue against disbelief that denies fact.


*If one wanted to point to an 'unchanging' species, one might mention sharks: in existence prior to dinosaurs, and still in existence today. So perhaps God created sharks. But whether or not God created the entire universe and everything in it has no bearing on evolution. They are completely unrelated topics - except in the mind of evolution-deniers apparently, who employ such terms as 'Darwinists' and 'evolutionists' (ignoring the fact that Darwin himself was a believer and merely the first to make evolution theory public knowledge - and he only did so because someone else was about to do the same. A mere 7 years after the fact Mendel's experiments first proved evolution as fact.)
 
The fact that evolution exists is not in question though. The point of contention is how much faith one puts into evolution as being the answer to what happened past the point of observation. Any one can say, "This is what happened", but there is only "projected" observable examples. There are facts that have been collected in favor of evolution on one side, and what is written in the Bible on the other. Some people accept the mountain of facts. That they are believable facts does not take away their acceptance. There are people who go beyond mere belief and just accept the evidence as truth.


At least, that's how it seems to me. Sorry for this not being a question really. Is there anyone else who seems to think the derivation of moral facts from the universe is entirely compatible with DCT?

On one side there are those who use nature and the universe to do away with God altogether, while those who hold DCT use it as a hammer to control other humans.

Nature contains all there is to live a moral life and all there is to live an immoral life. Nature can be used as an excuse to do either.

We have evidence that God steps in at points where human nature is beyond moral aptitude. God even used other humans as instruments to that point. That is why it is hard to reconcile to humans who do not know God, that there is a difference. The hammer of DCT does not win friends nor influences support.

The Law was not given to bring knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. It was the instructor to show that humans are incapable of living in a divine manner. Humans without God, have knowledge of being like God from experience and nature itself. People who know God keep the law out of nature's responsibility, not because they fear God or even as an avoidance of punishment. That is the human result of the fallen nature. Fear of God comes from knowing who he is, not from one's nature or morals. As long as DCT is not used as a club, it is merely pointing out that God is the source of all things.

It would seem to me that it is just hashing out the age old thought process that humans are depraved and can only change themselves or only a few can do as they please and still be God's favored, as opposed to the thought process that all will be redeemed. The point being, humans are still left to their own wills regardless of what God wills. The blessings come from those who choose God's will whether they accept God or not.
 
The fact that evolution exists is not in question though. The point of contention is how much faith one puts into evolution as being the answer to what happened past the point of observation.

Evolution is a concept applied to biology; it does not occupy itself with things past the point of observation.

There are facts that have been collected in favor of evolution on one side, and what is written in the Bible on the other.

No. There are facts and experiments verifying evolution, and none that falsify it. That is how science works. The Bible is not on the other side, as the Bible isn't a science book. Gravity isn't mentioned in the Bible: does that mean it's inspired by the devil? Or is it just plain fact, which can be repeated over and over to show its verity?
 
This is two questions.

1) Factual primer--Who, What, Where, When, and especially Why? A good lay reference source would be nice.

2) What is the historical and theological significance? Particularly, what are the common erroneous conceptions about the book?

J
 
You might want to make those questions a bit more… specific.
 
Regarding Adam and evolution, a Mesopotamian myth says the gods led by a serpent god bound their "image" onto an existing creature roaming the Abzu, the serpent god's realm to the south of Sumer.

The notion of inferior "monkey men" or more primitive peoples inhabiting the world before the first man and woman is not uncommon and the Garden story reflects this evolutionary leap - Adam goes from a state of naked, moral ignorance to a being with so much potential God repeatedly intervenes to slow his progress, from eviction and mortality to the Flood and Babel.

There's even a Zulu myth claiming their primordial ancestors made war on the "apemen" showing the great antiquity possible with oral traditions.
 
Those Zulu myths might be very old tales of wars against near-human hominins, perhaps.
 
Buy a book?
 
Plotinus is not an expert on the Old Testament, so he might only be able to give an 'advanced lay summary'. I don't think I've seen a discussion on the parallels between Job and New Testament teaching. Remember, Job was written when "God's favour" was shown with material well-being, whereas the New Testament emphasises 'future well-being' as the reward.
 
Takhisis said:
Those Zulu myths might be very old tales of wars against near-human hominins, perhaps.

Or legends born out of the fact that baboon raids were a lived reality among Zulu. And if we admit that story might have some basis in truth, what's to stop me supposing that stories about Inkanyamba are actually ancient remembrances of a waterfall sized ancient snake? My supposition being no more intrinsically ridiculous than yours. This isn't specifically aimed at you Takh. It's more a gripe at a school of thought that picks and choose the "rational" stuff and decides it must be true while ignoring the fantastical stuff that's of equal importance - if not more - in a lived oral tradition. (Who honestly cares about an ordinary snake? The important parts is its status as a supernatural deity that can give you advice not its scales).
 
What was your experience of getting an MA in theology with a background in not-theology? How common is this among people who pursue them? I'm at a point where I'm interested in pursuing theological scholarship in the future, but circumstances aren't really favorable to me getting a BA in religious studies.
 
Inspired by the latest Crusader Kings II patch, where they're portrayed as a Nestorian heresy that supports gender-equality and incest while worshiping Lucifer (as well as God and Jesus) [and as such, most of the fanbase seems to want to play as them....], I'm rather curious about what the Messalians actually were. Wiki give an outline, but, as usual, is rather lacking in depth. Can you provide any more detail Plotinus?
 
Berzerker said:
I suspect the Zulu dont call baboons ape men

So are they "ape men" or "monkey men" now?
 
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