Ask an Evangelical Christian part deux

[Berzerker]

There is nothing that takes God by surprise

He seemed awfully surprised by the Serpent, Adam and Eve...

The second half is not my problem (I would be giving specifically Catholic teaching on the issue) and I will leave it to a dutiful evangelical to examine that.

As to the first half however that can be taken as a generic. As to that question, it appears to me that you are taking a single passage from the bible and making conclusions based on a single passage. Always an erroneous way to look at the bible which must be taken as a coherent whole.

So for example in focussing on your single passage you conveniently miss Luke 11:39-44 which has some very illuminating words from Christ. (I will use the favoured translation of the evangelical in the quotation for character purposes )

Spoiler :

And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat. And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also? But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them

Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also. And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered

And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things: Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

he seems rather critical here of the pharisees, and indeed by hypocrites who stand on streetcorners the implication is that he is talking about said pharisees and other such folk. As to the praying ostentatiously on streetcorners thing, that is not commanded by christianity in any form that I am aware of making that point of yours rather odd, and as to praying in church, well there is nothing wrong with that unless you want to go obstentatiously waving your arms around and emitting noise to make a show?

What is condemned is public and ostentatious acts of false piety, without any real internal faith and love of God behind that manifestation, which in the example of the pharisees is thus devoid of this interior state, and is at best enacted out of a dead dogmatism devoid of real faith (as I said previously) and at worst is enacted purely for some temporal gain on the part of the "pharisee", say reputation and high standing in society.

No convenience, I'm just reading what the Bible claims Jesus said... And I read thru all that and I still dont see where he told people to pray in public, regardless of their motives. Everything you've said is in direct conflict with his specific instruction to pray in seclusion. How do you explain that? Its right there in the Bible:

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.

it cant be any more clear...

 

[Jehoshua]

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.

Indeed it is clear what is condemned is praying ostentatiously in public, to be seen by others . that is for some temporal purpose without any real internal piety. This is exactly as I said previously. On another thing the quote I said was to show that the pharisees were indeed mentioned in regards to that general problem in context despite your earlier assertion and that your quote in context is a reference to the pharisees and their ilk.

Now as to going into your room and praying, that is commanded and indeed in my earlier post if you care to read it properly I said praying ostentatiously on the streetcorner is not commanded and is not to be engaged in. However as to the commandment to pray privately it is not commanded in exclusion to going to Church or indeed praying elsewhere! He doesn't say, "pray in your room and don't meet any other christian or pray as a community or pray in any non-private location". Ergo it is a positive commandment, not a negative one, (that is it is a commandment that you are to do this, not a commandment that you are not to do this, that or another thing.)

Indeed If going to Church is condemned then why indeed did Christ teach in the synagogue at Nazareth? Why did the earliest christians with the aposles, as written in the epistles, meet together for worship? It is because what is condemned is worshipping ostentatiously to be seen, and because the commandment to pray privately and earnestly to God is not to the exclusion of worship as a community.

Your interpretation simply is erroneous and reading into scripture a personal bias. Incidentally that is the problem with sola-scriptura (amongst other things), but thats another thing all-together.

 

[Berzerker]

Indeed it is clear what is condemned is praying ostentatiously in public, to be seen by others . that is for some temporal purpose without any real internal piety. This is exactly as I said previously. On another thing the quote I said was to show that the pharisees were indeed mentioned in regards to that general problem in context despite your earlier assertion and that your quote in context is a reference to the pharisees and their ilk.

And their ilk? Whats that mean? Jesus identified who he was talking about, hypocrites who pray in public so they may be seen. It doesn't matter one bit if they're pharisees and their ilk or not - I identified them as Jesus did in the verse.

Now as to going into your room and praying, that is commanded and indeed in my earlier post if you care to read it properly I said praying ostentatiously on the streetcorner is not commanded and is not to be engaged in.

But you think praying on the street is fine if you're "sincere", right? So my question again, why do so many Christians ignore his instructions regarding prayer? When he pointed to the hypocrites praying in public, he didn't tell his followers to pray in public sincerely, he told them to find seclusion.

However as to the commandment to pray privately it is not commanded in exclusion to going to Church or indeed praying elsewhere! He doesn't say, "pray in your room and don't meet any other christian or pray as a community or pray in any non-private location". Ergo it is a positive commandment, not a negative one, (that is it is a commandment that you are to do this, not a commandment that you are not to do this, that or another thing.)

I dont see the difference between praying in a synagogue or a church, but if a room is not available the rest of his instruction doesn't magically transform into "pray on the street next to the hypocrites so everyone can see your sincerity". If seclusion is unavailable, then I'd buy into that argument. But that aint the case with people standing around on streets praying.

Indeed If going to Church is condemned then why indeed did Christ teach in the synagogue at Nazareth?

Teaching aint praying, and Jesus didn't condemn going to church.

Why did the earliest christians with the aposles, as written in the epistles, meet together for worship? It is because what is condemned is worshipping ostentatiously to be seen, and because the commandment to pray privately and earnestly to God is not to the exclusion of worship as a community.

Well, if they got together to pray on a street, then yes, they'd be violating Jesus' instruction.

Your interpretation simply is erroneous and reading into scripture a personal bias. Incidentally that is the problem with sola-scriptura (amongst other things), but thats another thing all-together.

I'm just quoting Jesus and you're telling me Jesus is fine with praying in churches and on streets because a room might not be available. Kinda missing the point, pray in seclusion, fast in secret, etc.

 

[Jehoshua]

And their ilk? Whats that mean? Jesus identified who he was talking about, hypocrites who pray in public so they may be seen. It doesn't matter one bit if they're pharisees and their ilk or not - I identified them as Jesus did in the verse.

ilk = fellow hypocrites.

But you think praying on the street is fine if you're "sincere", right? So my question again, why do so many Christians ignore his instructions regarding prayer? When he pointed to the hypocrites praying in public, he didn't tell his followers to pray in public sincerely, he told them to find seclusion.

What a wonderful manner you have of putting words into my mouth that I never said. For the record praying on the street is fine so long as it is quiet and non-ostentatious. Jesus condemned praying ostentatiously, making a side-show of praying and thus making hypocrisy out of the act of prayer which is supposed to be internal.

I dont see the difference between praying in a synagogue or a church, but if a room is not available the rest of his instruction doesn't magically transform into "pray on the street next to the hypocrites so everyone can see your sincerity". If seclusion is unavailable, then I'd buy into that argument. But that aint the case with people standing around on streets praying.

Again, I never said you should go waving your arms and speaking in tongues on a streetcorner. I am saying that doing that is wrong, because it is ostentatious and making a show, I even said explicitly in my post that "what is condemned is worshipping (and praying since they are not mutually synonymous) ostentatiously to be seen" You need to read my posts properly and stop putting words in my mouth.

Teaching aint praying, and Jesus didn't condemn going to church.

good then, you are not condemning all christian activity outside the privacy of ones closet as some do.

Well, if they got together to pray on a street, then yes, they'd be violating Jesus' instruction.

They would if they were praying ostentatiously making a show so that everyone could see them. If they were on a street corner praying in their mind so that they are not drawing attention to themselves there is no problem with that, despite the fact its on a streetcorner because they are not making a show.

I'm just quoting Jesus and you're telling me Jesus is fine with praying in churches and on streets because a room might not be available. Kinda missing the point, pray in seclusion, fast in secret, etc.

Your quoting Jesus yes, and then putting your spin on the quote. The whole thread of this discussion seems to me to be you putting words into my mouth. So for example I never said "go forth and pray on a street-corner". What I am saying is that it is not sinful to go and pray quietly in any place at all, you can do it anywhere. What is sinful, as is shown in the passages brought up is praying publicly ostentatiously and making a show of what is supposed to be an internal state of mind. Prayer is meant to be interior, which is why he says go into your room to pray, this room is not only a literal room, but also the room of the soul and the mind, closed off from the distractions of the world and focused solely on a dialogue with God.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Why do so many Evangelicals shave their beards? Why don't they consider beard-shaving to be an offence to God?

 

[timtofly]

Why do so many Evangelicals shave their beards? Why don't they consider beard-shaving to be an offence to God?

It would only be an offense, if you did it after God personally told you not to do it. The Nazarite vow is for those who vow it, not every one. Facial hair is a personal preference, not a commandment.

On a side note. My 2 year old daughter who grew up knowing nothing else, cried after I shaved off my beard. Now, at age 10, she says, "a beard does not look good on you", whenever I start one.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't think he was talking about the Nazarite vow, but Leviticus 19:26: "You shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shall thou mar the corners of your beard."

(Ezekiel 44:20 also prohibits shaving, as well as letting the hair grow long. This commandment to keep the hair neatly trimmed was specifically given to Levitical priests though.)


That commandment was probably given so that the Israelites would distance themselves from the practices of certain idolators, whose priests would cut their hair and beard in strange tonsures and who would shave to demonstrate to the world when they were in mourning. It is related to the commandment against tattoos and other self mutilation to honor the dead.


The groups and customs from which they were to distance themselves no longer exist. Furthermore, this was a commandment given specifically to the nation of Israel, and never expected of gentiles. It does not follow directly from any of the seven Noahide Laws, or even from the Ten Commandments. It is not related to the four commandments that the apostles at the Council of Jerusalem decided that gentiles needed to keep.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Bumping the thread to answer a couple of questions and open the thread again for new ones.

. If you want to know why Catholics are ritualistic, ask why there were so many mystery cults back then. I've been going to an Episcopal church recently to spend time with friends, and I must say I rather like all the ritual. It emphasizes the fact that church is sacred, serious business -- certainly not a feeling I've ever gotten observing protestant services.

Ritual for its own sake is just ritual (Habit) and doesn't glorify God in itself, nor is a ritualistic church service ever commanded.

Is murdering someone really 'irreversible'? And (oh yea of little faith), why do you make arguments as if it was actually irreversible? If your moral argument is built upon sand, it cannot stand the rain. And, it seems to me, that murder as easy to reverse as it would be to cure a leper, cast out a demon, or get a mountain to cast itself into the sea. No?

Obviously, God could reverse a murder, but man cannot. Also, the Bible's justice system demands Capital Punishment. Even if the murdered person were dramatically and miraculously resurrected, the murderer would still deserve death as just punishment for his crime.

edit: A second question (as a hypothetical): how would your faith handle evidence of intelligence extra-terrestrial aliens?

I doubt they exist, but if they did, I'd assume either they had never sinned, or they had souls as we do and Christ had died for them as well. But... I don't know. It is tricky. I definitely don't think they exist because of all the logical problems their existance would create.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Cool. I have a general Christian question, hope that's alright.

How did evil originate?

 

[timtofly]

It evolved.

BTW, what would be your definition of evil in this context?

There are quite a few different uses for the word evil.

 

[madviking]

How about evil as any deviation from an ideally good world.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It evolved.

BTW, what would be your definition of evil in this context?

There are quite a few different uses for the word evil.

Ok, I'll rephrase. How do you define evil and how did it originate?

And "it evolved"?

 

[timtofly]

Evil was not created. Since no one knows if Lucifer's pride or Adam's disobedience came first, it is hard to say who got the ball rolling.

Evil to me is "unjust" behaviour. God was just in separating the light (Himself) from the darkness (not God). Those who add to God, say that the darkness is the second most powerful thing in the universe (evil). God cannot be good and at the same time be evil. I would not say that evil is the absence of God though. God is everywhere and thus there is not an absent place without God. That would mean that there is no evil. Yes, evil is not a thing. I would say that evil "stems" "evolves" from the rejection of God and justice. Athiest would just see evil as the rejection of justice, and in this they can form their own morality.

Personally evil to me is the lack and trust and respect in a God who does cary out justice, even if humanity cannot understand the reasons for doing so. Thus evil is not God nor lack of God, but it is in our perception of Who God Is.

If humans can justify carrying out evil without a conscience, then they have removed God from the equation and evil has "triumphed", at least in their world.

 

[_random_]

Why don't you guys use incense? You see its use mentioned throughout the Bible, but I've never seen or heard of it in a non-Anglican Protestant service.

 

[Leoreth]

How does Lucifer's "fall" factor into human evil anyway?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Evil was not created.

So, Evil was not created. Scratch one option. Back to my question: How did evil originate?

 

[Verarde]

I don't know how evil originated. I can tell you how sin originated though, which is practically the same.

Sin came into existence when Eve and Adam disobeyed God's command to not eat of the fruit of the tree of life, due to temptation from the serpent, or Satan.

 

[Arakhor]

The very same serpent that God put there to tempt Adam and Eve, knowing full well what would happen.

 

[timtofly]

Why don't you guys use incense? You see its use mentioned throughout the Bible, but I've never seen or heard of it in a non-Anglican Protestant service.

The church is free to follow however they see fit. There are no "blanket" rules to follow other than tell the Good News and Baptize. It was designed to fit into any culture and not change men from the outside, but after God changes the heart a place to re-charge from daily activities and draw strength from like minded people. The culture in some places may change, but it does not have to. There are cultures that carry on the Jewish and eastern way of burning incense, but it is not a commandment to do so.

The very same serpent that God put there to tempt Adam and Eve, knowing full well what would happen.

It is not that simple and not even that complicated. Evil is not a result of sin. Evil is sin. Evil is the lack of justice. Evil is the lack of obedience. Evil is the lack of God. Sin did not originate anywhere.

Let's say a person tells a little lie. Even just to hide the truth, to keep from hurting someones feelings, that is the "start" of an evil process. That is the point where an evil originates. It is the point where truth becomes a lie. If that process is not reversed, it will produce more evil until it gets so far out of hand that wars brake out. That is the "origin" of evil.

There comes a point where "evil" acts are no longer tolerated by God and He wipes out whole civilizations. Lucifer thought (evil) that he could do a better job than God, and he was cast out of heaven. The serpent thought (evil) that humans would be better off disobeying. Adam thought (evil) that Eve was more desirable than God and disobeyed. Peter thought (evil) that Jesus should not die, and Jesus called him satan. Satan may be the instigator of evil and plants thoughts that turn us from the Light. God is the light and in Him is no evil. Anything that tries to turn man's hearts away from God is the seed of evil and if left unchecked will destroy a persons life.

Now human justice can be carried out without God, because every soul has an eternal light (God) that guides men away from the darkness. On the very first day, God seperated the light from the darkness. This is God showing us that humans can live in the darkness but in the morning God visits and there are 12 hours of light. Humans can prosper without God's constant presence and still maintain a healthy lifestyle. To a certain extent men have self-control and the ability to govern oneself. That was how it was originally designed. God had one simple request and Adam disobyed and separation from God was permanent. So it is easier now for satan to implant a thought that can lead us to "evil" acts.

Evil is not some force that is competing against God. Satan is competing against God and uses thoughts to do so. Humans are selfish and their own thoughts can betray them as well. It is when humans and satan continue to follow a certain path that leads away from the light that darkness comes and that result is what we see as evil. Just as the night passes and day once again appears, is the fact that evil will not triumph but God always has the last say in things, and justice has to be done, for no darkness can enter into the light of God's presence. The darkness of night is not evil, it is God showing us that we are created in His image and that darkness has no power over us. This fact was established even before the sun, moon, and stars were created. When God created the sun and set the rotation of the earth He also kept the day and nighttime separate and equal. He allowed men free will and allowed men His presence as equals.

Humans will never be able to explain how God created perfection and it turned on Him. Adam may have had that knowledge. Moses may have had that knowledge. Moses penned the words that stated he would disobey God and die outside of the promised land. Moses also knew that he would live to be 120. Only Moses knew where his grave would be and that it would be hidden from maknind, for Moses was the only human who ever saw the face of God and lived. He had this promise that He would see God and live forever. That even the darkness of disobedience would not hold back his eternal soul.

 

[classical_hero]

So, Evil was not created. Scratch one option. Back to my question: How did evil originate?

Satan's disobedience. When he went against God's rule he rebelled against God and as a result of his disobedience he knew he was in trouble so he lied to Adam about the consequences of the actions of Adam.