Ask an Evangelical III

Status
Not open for further replies.
By good muslim life I mean that they followed the teachings of Mohammad and made the tacit assumption that you would understand this with resorting to some biblical based word games.

From what I understand of the teachings of Muhammad, most of them involve killing infidels and the like, and the earlier, gentler texts were actually abroggated by later ones.

A Muslim could clear this up for me though.


Next questions:
If the person has heard of the Christ (let's say on TV or some other way that doesn't involve being directly proselytized) but rejects the Christian faith because it is different from his religious convictions, does this person still go to hell?

It doesn't matter where they heard it from, if they heard it they have the choice to accept it.
Would a pagan who has never heard of any Abrahamic faiths also be doomed to hell? Would god be more or less merciful to them than a muslim or jew?

The only place I could ever see it making a difference is a Jew who actually believes what the Bible says about the Messiah, but just doesn't know that Jesus fulfilled them due to having no idea who he was. While this situation is probably not applicable today, in the years that Jesus was alive, I have a feeling that people were still being saved if they had faith that he was coming even if they didn't know he had yet arrived.

Otherwise, it wouldn't make a difference, and they would most likely go to Hell.
It is rather contradictory if you trust Jesus with only some of his words. If you don't believe Jesus about what he said about things in the past, how can you trust his words when he says that he is the way of salvation?

Because Jesus was a religious teacher, not a biologist, geologist or physicist.

Jesus was not "A religious teacher" he was the Son of God. I can't believe you would claim to be a Christian and say he's just "A religious teacher."

That said, classical_hero, does Jesus, himself, actually say anything at all about the age of the Earth? He references Abel I know, but does he, again, himself, actually say the world is young? I don't recall to anything about that specifically being mentioned at all in Jesus' message.

I agree with you that we're still supposed to accept it (2 Timothy 3:16 says that God is ultimately the author of all of the scripture including Genesis 1) but I don't know that Jesus himself says it. Either way I'm not sure why that would be essential for Salvation. If being right on everything was essential we'd all go to Hell.
 
Jesus was not "A religious teacher" he was the Son of God. I can't believe you would claim to be a Christian and say he's just "A religious teacher."

I never said that he was "just" anything. Being the Son of God does not automatically imply divine omniscience as well.
 
Did Jesus actually claim to be omniscient or are you reading far too much into that?
 
And if that's all he said, anything is interpretation.
 
He says he and the Father are One.

Except there's that scene in the Garden at Gesthemane, as well as others which make it very clear that Jesus has one hell of a lot of humanity, as well - I don't think Andrew Lloyd Webber's imaging of it is too far from the mark - I think the implication at least is made that Jesus thinks, in broad terms, like any other human being.
 
Except there's that scene in the Garden at Gesthemane, as well as others which make it very clear that Jesus has one hell of a lot of humanity, as well - I don't think Andrew Lloyd Webber's imaging of it is too far from the mark - I think the implication at least is made that Jesus thinks, in broad terms, like any other human being.

Indeed. He was both 100% God and 100% man.

Jesus could not have possibly said something that wasn't true since he is the Son of God.
 
Jesus could not have possibly said something that wasn't true since he is the Son of God.

That's pure interpretation and isn't based on anything in the Bible. I presume it qualifies as Evangelical tradition.
 
So what about the whole not-knowing-the-day-nor-the-hour thing? If we take that literally (which isn't absolutely necessary), then Jesus couldn't have been omniscient, at least not for a conventional definition of "omniscience." And if we're going to assume that all human aspects were perfect, why limit that to intellect? Could Jesus beat Drew Breesus in football?
 
So what about the whole not-knowing-the-day-nor-the-hour thing? If we take that literally (which isn't absolutely necessary), then Jesus couldn't have been omniscient, at least not for a conventional definition of "omniscience." And if we're going to assume that all human aspects were perfect, why limit that to intellect? Could Jesus beat Drew Breesus in football?

I think it was literal, he didn't know, but he CLAIMS not to know either.

Honestly, I think Classical_Hero was probably wrong and Jesus didn't actually tell us what the age of the Earth was.

But what if he did? He wouldn't tell us that if he didn't know. Otherwise he'd be lying, and he IS perfect.

And no, that doesn't mean "Physically" but in the sense of "Sinless" and that his teachings are accurate.
 
How do you explain celestial objects (almost all of them) that are much farther than 6000 light years?
 
How do you explain celestial objects (almost all of them) that are much farther than 6000 light years?

I've been jealous of your picture and your sig for quite some time now. Now I'm also jealous of your logic, damn you.:blush:

From what I understand of the teachings of Muhammad, most of them involve killing infidels and the like, and the earlier, gentler texts were actually abroggated by later ones.

A Muslim could clear this up for me though.
You live in a very small little world don't you? I can't even give this an honest reply....it's just so...ugh.
 
Genesis 2 seems to me to be more of a "Quick summary" while Genesis 1 actually describes the process. Genesis 2 doesn't actually claim that man was made first, only that the animals were formed, which is listed after man was made.

That might be good enough, but based on context,its also probable that, while God created most of the animals in Genesis 1, he actually created the animals IN THE GARDEN, which were the ones Adam specifically named, in Genesis 2. So while every type existed throughout the world first, God created more to populate the garden in Genesis 2.

I'm not sure which of those two is correct, but I think either one solves the problem.
It is nice to see your skill at hoop jumping has improved. Anyhow, in the first chapter of Genesis man is quite clearly created after all the birds, trees, and whatnot. However, in the second account of creation (Gen 2:5-7):
"while as yet there was no field shrub on earth and no grass of the field had sprouted, for the LORD God had sent no rain upon the Earth and there was no man to till the soil, but a stream was welling up out of the earth and was watering all the surface of the ground- the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being."
Genesis 2 clearly established man came first and then all the plants and animals were made. This branches into two questions:
1. If we are to assume the Bible is literally correct, which account of creation tells us the right order of creation?
2. Why the focus and hoop-jumping to try and find an explanation where both are correct instead of looking at the original text (or as close as we can find to the original text) and seeing how they are two distinct styles of Hebrew, amalgamated from the separate texts?
Ugh, Leviticus, the single most annoying book to have to try to interpret:p
So you are interpreting it, not merely reading it and knowing what it means automaticaly? If Leviticus has to be interpreted for a modern context why don't the other books have to be interpreted for a modern context?

In all seriousness I'm not really completely familiar with all of the Jewish culture and whatnot that went into this. The reality is that we are in the New Covenant and Leviticus was written for the Old Covenant. As such, as don't have to follow everything in it as literally stated.
How do we know what to follow and what not to follow? I don't believe Jesus left a revised addition detailing what rules we should and shouldn't follow.

2. The moral laws. These are things that are repeated in the New Testament or we don't have any indication would not still apply. The ban on homosexual sex and incest apply. These are still in full force today, although the legal penalties may be different or perhaps nonexistant.
I don't recall Jesus talking about polyester clothing or homosexuality, so why then the disconnect in how they are applied to modern society?

3. The legal laws. These are things regarding government, such as "If you do such and such you shall be put to death" or whatever. It was just a legal system, for Israel. There is nothing that says WE have to apply the same penalties in our respective countries. It does refute the idea, however, that all sins are exactly the same in the eyes of God.
Does Leviticus say "This applies only to Jews. Christians need not follow"?


Actually, the Jewish revelation is actually part of why we believe Jesus. Just look at Isaiah 53 and then about how he died.
Unfortunately, as I see it, two problems emerge.
1. That passage is written in the past tense. Unfortunately, my knowledge of Ancient Hebrew or Greek is non-existant so I cannot check to the source material, but it appears that a passage writing about a person in the past tense isn't really referring to a person who will come in the future. Does this change your opinion on it?
2. The major schools of Jewish theology don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. Are they incorrect in their assesment?


If for no other reason, Islam is wrong because of what it says about Jesus (And there are other reasons.) There are four different sources regarding Jesus getting crucified on a cross and rising again, yet Islam rejects that he did these things.
Four non-independent sources who had a large personal stake in the matter, and whose relation the Jesus or their firsthand presence is not concretely established.
They also say Muhammad was a greater prophet than Jesus, something Jesus clearly rejected the possibility of (He makes clear his own divinity) and yet Muslims still think Jesus is a prophet, it makes no sense.
Neither Moses nor Abraham were divine, but they are both considered prophets.
I noticed your primary argument for the validity to Christianity is pointing out how Islam differs from Christianity. Could I not simply state Christianity differs on its portrayal of Jesus from Islam, and therefore is incorrect? What about the Jewish version of him?

From what I understand of the teachings of Muhammad, most of them involve killing infidels and the like, and the earlier, gentler texts were actually abroggated by later ones.
Abrogation is a very complex issue in Islam and it differs wildly between the different sects and between different groups in the same sect. There is no 'official' position on abrogation is Islam.
 
Why is so much of Leviticus ignored by Evangelicals?

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
 
I think this whole post shows why Catholicism can't be the true faith. The reality is that the Catholic faith has watered its view of the Bible down an incredible degree since is founding. The Catholic Church used to argue so strongly regarding Biblical literalism that they persecuted Galileo for helicentricism. Now, that is of course absurd since the Bible never teaches a flat Earth, and in fact refutes it (Isaiah 40:22) but now the Catholic Church has watered the Bible down to a shell of the authority it once had. Of course, the Church still maintains the same authority, and has in fact increased in authority, such as papal infallibility.

The Church put Galilleo under house arrest for teaching that the sun was the centre of the universe, not quite for heliocentrism my friend. Indeed Copernicus (A Catholic Priest) taught heliocentrism and he was not persecuted for that. Of course the Church has admitted it acted wrongly in this incident, but one must still present the facts as they are, not as they are popularly said to be. Incidentally all that has nothing to do with a flat earth, indeed it was commonly recognised by the Church and educated society since antiquity that the Earth was a sphere (thus why Catholic iconography often has Christ holding, or using as a foot-rest an Orb representing the world)

Now to your point, I would like to refer you to the fact that Augustine (354-430 AD) took the view that Biblical texts should not be interpreted literally if it contradicts what we know from science and our God-given reason. This is due to the fact that although scripture is innerrant on spiritual matters, due to the fact God inspired men to write them, they are not infallible on temporal matters (God inspired men to write various works to reveal religious, theological and moral truth, he did not inspire them to write a scientific text-book or reveal the mysteries of "how the heavens move").

As to Scriptural authority, your looking at it from the view of Sola Scriptura which only emerged with protestantism. In all christianity before protestantism came forth from the minds of Luther, Calvin and others it was clearly understood that scriptures authority is accepted, solely because it is accepted by the Church. Ergo the Church itself is the foundational source of infallible authority on matters of faith and morals because it, as scripture says, is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and it is solely because it proclaims that scripture is indeed spiritually innerant that we can be assured that it is thus. Indeed the sole reason you have the books in the bible you have is because the Church itself declared those books to be inspired (as compared to many other similar texts like the secret gospel of matthew for example) and decreed them to be worthy of canonisation. (minus a few because Luther excised some which disagreed with his theology)

Plus, the New Testament canon makes no sense from a Catholic point of view. Basically, what some 2nd century guys who allegedly forged Paul and Peter (In the pastoral epistles and 2 Peter) were infallible on spiritual matters, even though they actually had to lie in order to get that canon, but Ignatius, who wrote earlier, was not infallible. It makes much more sense to assume the accuracy of the fact that the Bible was actually written by the Apostles and those who knew them personally, but Catholics have given in to liberalism because its not a "Spiritual matter."

The point is, Catholics on the whole don't tend to care so much as protestants on who precisely wrote any given text, because the fact of the matter is that no matter who wrote them those books are inspired, and innerrant on spiritual-moral matters and as scripture itself says, useful for all teaching. Ergo we simply say scripture is what it is no matter who wrote it since ultimately inspiration comes from God. (I also remind you here that your notion of "forged", is transposing a modern understanding to ancient writers)

Furthermore I point out that this whole matter revolves on the presumption that all Catholics (or the Catholic Church in an official capacity) presumes what you say about the pastoral epistles and 2 Peter. This is simply not the case and is an incidence of you ranting on a construction of your own making.

Tell me, what is a spiritual issue? Is 2 Timothy 3:16 a spiritually matter? It says all of Scripture is "God-breathed." Can God breathe out lies?

As I have mentioned to you multiple times, this passage refers to all scripture being inspired, and useful for all teaching, reproach, correction and so on and so forth. It simply does not say "all scripture is infallible" and indeed it is absurd to say that just because something is inspired by God, it is infallible on every matter as inspiration is for the purpose of revealing religious, spiritual and moral truth, not for suddenly making the recipient of inspiration infallible on every matter they care to write about.
 
Out of curiosity GW, do you acknowledge the likelyhood of Biblical translation errors?

Genesis 2 seems to me to be more of a "Quick summary" while Genesis 1 actually describes the process. Genesis 2 doesn't actually claim that man was made first, only that the animals were formed, which is listed after man was made.

That might be good enough, but based on context,its also probable that, while God created most of the animals in Genesis 1, he actually created the animals IN THE GARDEN, which were the ones Adam specifically named, in Genesis 2. So while every type existed throughout the world first, God created more to populate the garden in Genesis 2.

I'm not sure which of those two is correct, but I think either one solves the problem.
Was Jesus' first sermon in a hill tile or a plains tile?

If you're reading it literally then it does indeed say man was created first.

Genesis 2:19 clearly states that god "formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air". Genesis 1:25 states that the beasts of the earth had already been formed when god got round to man.

So either:

a) There is a contradiction here or
b) One has to read the passages non-literally.

What's it going to be?

Where does it say its his first sermon?

Jeheshua is correct, I misinterpreted the context here. It still seems likely to me that the accounts are of the same sermon however...

How did Judas die?
I see no reason that this (Acts 1:18) is not describing what happened after he was hanged, in spite of Jehoshua providing that explanation in jest. The reality is that literally NOTHING leading up to his death is explained in Acts 1. It literally just says "He shared in our ministry, and falling headlong...." there's simply no logical leadup to it. So I see no reason that can contradict. The point of Acts 1:18 is basically that he killed himself. Matthew is more specific, but they are saying the same thing.

First of you're completely ignoring the fact that one account says he used the silver to buy a field and the other says he dropped it in the temple. Secondly the suggestion that one account precede the other makes no sense. If he hanged and then the rope broke why does the passage say he fell headlong?

Regarding the bolded bit: that's only because if you acknowledge the clear contradiction then you have to reassess your entire worldview, and you're probably not yet brave enough to take that step. How elaborate and inconsistent does a comforting lie have to become before it's no longer comforting?
 
What is the point of all of the other rules and commandments in the Bible if salvation is determined on one factor and one factor only (whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as your Savior)?
 
The Church put Galilleo under house arrest for teaching that the sun was the centre of the universe, not quite for heliocentrism my friend. Indeed Copernicus (A Catholic Priest) taught heliocentrism and he was not persecuted for that. Of course the Church has admitted it acted wrongly in this incident, but one must still present the facts as they are, not as they are popularly said to be. Incidentally all that has nothing to do with a flat earth, indeed it was commonly recognised by the Church and educated society since antiquity that the Earth was a sphere (thus why Catholic iconography often has Christ holding, or using as a foot-rest an Orb representing the world)

Fair enough, although why exactly did Galileo's teaching on this point actually matter other than that it was later proved scientifically inaccurate?

Now to your point, I would like to refer you to the fact that Augustine (354-430 AD) took the view that Biblical texts should not be interpreted literally if it contradicts what we know from science and our God-given reason. This is due to the fact that although scripture is innerrant on spiritual matters, due to the fact God inspired men to write them, they are not infallible on temporal matters (God inspired men to write various works to reveal religious, theological and moral truth, he did not inspire them to write a scientific text-book or reveal the mysteries of "how the heavens move").

Indeed. Augustine also inspired Luther and Calvin:p

I agree that he didn't write a science textbook, but the work is still "God-breathed" that is, it is as if God breathed out the words himself. If they cannot be trusted on scientific and historical matters, 2 Timothy 3:16 is false.
As to Scriptural authority, your looking at it from the view of Sola Scriptura which only emerged with protestantism. In all christianity before protestantism came forth from the minds of Luther, Calvin and others it was clearly understood that scriptures authority is accepted, solely because it is accepted by the Church. Ergo the Church itself is the foundational source of infallible authority on matters of faith and morals because it, as scripture says, is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and it is solely because it proclaims that scripture is indeed spiritually innerant that we can be assured that it is thus. Indeed the sole reason you have the books in the bible you have is because the Church itself declared those books to be inspired (as compared to many other similar texts like the secret gospel of matthew for example) and decreed them to be worthy of canonisation. (minus a few because Luther excised some which disagreed with his theology)
There were a few books that were disputed in the early church, and some that were obviously gnostic works that didn't belong, but if I recall correctly, most of them were generally agreed upon since before the Council of Carthage (And I know the Catholic Church didn't totally decide its canon until Trent, and that the Apocrypha may have been disputed before that time). Nevertheless, I would think the people that lived a few generations after Christ (Who decided most of the canon) would have more authority than today's Catholic Church, which bears little resemblance to the teachings of Jesus and Paul.

Notably, Peter himself (2 Peter 3:16) canonizes Paul's writings.



Furthermore I point out that this whole matter revolves on the presumption that all Catholics (or the Catholic Church in an official capacity) presumes what you say about the pastoral epistles and 2 Peter. This is simply not the case and is an incidence of you ranting on a construction of your own making.

Fair enough. I assumed that most Catholics accepted the opinions of scholars much as how most Catholics accept the theory of Evolution, but I could be incorrect.

As I have mentioned to you multiple times, this passage refers to all scripture being inspired, and useful for all teaching, reproach, correction and so on and so forth. It simply does not say "all scripture is infallible" and indeed it is absurd to say that just because something is inspired by God, it is infallible on every matter as inspiration is for the purpose of revealing religious, spiritual and moral truth, not for suddenly making the recipient of inspiration infallible on every matter they care to write about.

If the writing is "God-breathed" that ultimately makes God the author. As such, God cannot lie and so everything in the text must be true.
Out of curiosity GW, do you acknowledge the likelyhood of Biblical translation errors?

Yes, only the original Hebrew and Greek text was infallible. Granted, the word for word translations (ESV and NASB are two I know of) are pretty darn close, but yes, translation errors are possible.


What is the point of all of the other rules and commandments in the Bible if salvation is determined on one factor and one factor only (whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as your Savior)?

Having faith in Christ means trusting in him and being obedient to his will is a part of that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom