Assassination Program is a "State Secret"

Eh, it's way past my bedtime, and I really need to sleep, but what the hell, I'll give it a shot as the Devil's advocate. :)

The issue:

I can see two main developments that has led to the situation turning out like this, and two possible choices ahead. One of those choices is that "the President of the United States asserting the power to issue kill orders for U.S. citizens without any judicial process". I'll come to the other.

The first development you have already touched upon:In todays world - well from the beginning of this millennium - military action and police action has become intermingled, and the difference between capturing a heavily armed criminal and fighting a war against a country is on its way to being eradicated.

Bounty hunters, secret agents, weapons depots, kidnappers, police, battlefields, terrorists, drug lords, corporate warriors, huge state armies, smugglers, extremists of all kinds, rebels and hit men seem to all have been mixed together into the same madness.

As such, it seems more and more evident that police will need military abilities and the military will need police abilities, and we will be losing the notion of having the police maintain security inside the state, and the military maintain security outside the state.

The second development is that the world is becoming more and more globalised. Migration becomes easier, trade and communication goes all over the world at all times, and multicultural societies become more and more the norm. Because of this notions such as American (US citisen), Norwegian, Mexican, Iranian, Egyptian and whatever else becomes less and less useful as labels that say anything at all about the people bearing them.

These two developments together means that if a person has a US citisenship, but resides in Yemen and actively fights the US, there is little to distinguish him in any real way from a person having some other citisenship, residing anywhere and fighting the US, since a Muslim Afghan may just as well live in the US as in Afghanistan, or in Yemen, etc.

If you insist that the President of the United States can not take the life of a person holding a US citisenship without the permission from a US court, then, by extension, the President of the United States may also not take the life of any other person without permission from a US court. Imagine, if you will, that the Taliban is a bit stronger, and has an armoured division being led by a guy with a US citisenship. Would the President need a US court to give permission before he can give orders to fight this division and kill/capture this guy? What if there were a thousand US citisens in the ranks of a well-armed Taliban military?

Of course, for fighting a war such a requirement would be absolutely disastrous. It would bring any advance a US military force could make to a screeching halt every time they needed to get a new permission from a court.

Or could they simply get an extended permission to fight until the war was over? But what then would hinder the President from ordering the killing of this person in Yemen? Or the killing of a US citisen anywhere, even inside US territory?

The two possible choices seem to be to insist the the President needs a court's permission every time he wish to kill/kill-if-can't-capture a US citisen, or to accept that the President does not need a court's permission to kill at all.

/Devil's advocate.

What do you think? Was I able to put together a logical argument at all, or is it just a big piece of rambling? And does it make sense? :)

Not bad. :) But it still just assumes the "wartime powers extend all over the world indefinitely" paradigm. And it requires that we assume the government is factually correct and acting in good faith about its assertion of terrorist status. (We protect the rights of the guilty because the next people who need those rights protected might be the innocent.) The argument the Devil seems to have put out here is basically: "the Constitution's protections ought not to apply anymore because the world's too dangerous; therefore we must submit to our government to protect us." Which is something with which a lot of people agree!

We shoot criminals that are citizens practically every day in this nation in trying to apprehend them. And the more dangerous the criminal, the more likely the use of deadly force being used. I dont really see the difference here.

Perhaps you can't see any because there are too many to list. E.g., (i) "trying to apprehend," (ii) a misunderstanding of the police justification for the use of force, (iii) process after the shooting, (iv) the secret nature of the assassination program, &c.

Cleo
 
This is not an assasination by any stretch of the term.

This is killing a declared enemy during wartime, nothing more, nothing less.

I am not sure what state secret Obama is refering to to block the inquiry, that sounds odd.
 
This is not an assasination by any stretch of the term.

This is killing a declared enemy during wartime, nothing more, nothing less.

I am not sure what state secret Obama is refering to to block the inquiry, that sounds odd.
Who knew you could declare war on a single person?
 
He's a criminal mastermind trying to murder as many of his fellow American citizens as he can.

He's probably in Yemen.

He's on the "capture-or-kill" list.

I don't see a problem. Is it the name of the list?

If it were the "capture with authorized use of appropriate deadly force" list would it be okay with you guys :p
 
Forget the military, this is hardly new even as a tool for criminal use. it's not exactly a new thing. Note that second to the last line on the poster.

billythekiddeadoralive.jpg
 
He's a criminal mastermind trying to murder as many of his fellow American citizens as he can.

He's probably in Yemen.

He's on the "capture-or-kill" list.

I don't see a problem. Is it the name of the list?

If it were the "capture with authorized use of appropriate deadly force" list would it be okay with you guys :p

Everything you say should be prefaced with, "the government asserts that . . ." If the government said that Theige was "a criminal mastermind trying to kill as many of his fellow citizens as possible," and did not even allow you to ask about how they came to that conclusion, would it be okay with you?

This is an easy situation if we just assume that the government is always right and unfailingly acts in our best interests. I'm sure living in a world where that's true would be wonderful. Alas. . .

Cleo
 
Everything you say should be prefaced with, "the government asserts that . . ." What if the government said that Theige was "a criminal mastermind trying to kill as many of his fellow citizens as possible," would it be okay with you?

This is an easy situation if we just assume that the government is always right and unfailingly acts in our best interests. I'm sure living in a world where that's true would be wonderful. Alas. . .

Cleo

Because I am not this, I would turn myself in and clear my name.

I fail to see how this is a valid argument unless you think our government is truly despicable.
 
Again, this is not a novel idea. This is how every gangster in the 1020s was treated and I doubt anyone is about to take up their cause.
 
We shoot criminals that are citizens practically every day in this nation in trying to apprehend them. And the more dangerous the criminal, the more likely the use of deadly force being used. I dont really see the difference here.

Only when they are committing a crime, and others are in immediate danger. Theres a reason chicago police didn't just shoot Al Capone in the 1920's.
 
And our news media are obsessed with whether a former elected official was booed while attending a reality television contest in which her daughter is competing. That's what's really important, not the government's unreviewable process-free assassination programs. I've said for years that you can't criticize Americans for their politics without understanding how mind-bogglingly stupid our political press is.
Indeed. That is because much of America respects her "feelings" even though she is a notorious celebrity through her own doing and that of her mother. But many of the same people would literally kill al-Awlaki on sight on the basis of what they have seen on Fox News or heard on talk radio.

USA #1 where the Constitution and federal law isn't the law of the land. They are a mere inconvenience in times like these.

I fail to see how this is a valid argument unless you think our government is truly despicable.
What would you call advocating the torture and even murder of innocent civilians under GWB, and now even the assassination of a US citizen without benefit of the court system under Obama?
 
Forget the military, this is hardly new even as a tool for criminal use. it's not exactly a new thing. Note that second to the last line on the poster.

billythekiddeadoralive.jpg

Actually, the ones that came to mind were more recent guys like Pretty Boy Floyd and John Dillinger. Dillinger especially as he was simply shot outright, as opposed to being taken down physically coming out of that theater.

Only when they are committing a crime, and others are in immediate danger. Theres a reason chicago police didn't just shoot Al Capone in the 1920's.

They sure as hell just shot other criminals not while commiting a crime and w/no immediate danger present.
 
Are these things analogous? If a wanted, high profile drug trafficker/gangster is killed by the police in America today, his or her family can sue the government and the government will be ordered to divulge documents, present government officials to the family's attorneys to provide testimony, etc. Not so here.
 
Are these things analogous? If a wanted, high profile drug trafficker/gangster is killed by the police in America today, his or her family can sue the government and the government will be ordered to divulge documents, present government officials to the family's attorneys to provide testimony, etc. Not so here.

They can sue all they want but if its decided that the nations security is at risk at divulging such information they wont get it. We both know that.
 
I fail to see how this is a valid argument unless you think our government is truly despicable.

The argument isn't that the government is acting maliciously, but that the government could be wrong. Thus, it should have to prove it's assertion in a court of law, just as it does with other judicial matters.
 
So um, just to throw out a hypothetical. What if a US citizen during WWII had become a very high ranking general in the Wehrmacht? Would it be out of bounds to target him for either being captured or killed? Kinda like how we targeted and killed Admiral Yamamoto?

Btw, this sounds less like assassination and more like "wanted dead or alive"

Then he should be tried for treason not assissinated. Thats no excuse to avoid using the courts to punish people.

If hes in hostile territory fighting U.S troops then he can be shot as an enemy combatant.

I just dont see the need to assassinate people in secret.
 
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