Brexit Thread V - The Final Countdown?!?

[Yeekim]

@Yeekim there is, of course, the old english jingoism and anti-european sentiment, there since forever. On the other hand, and given how close the vote in their ref was, i think you agree that the result was decided not just by usual english jingoism but also the effects austerity had in tarnishing both image and essense of the eu. Namely, it isnt like you would have this britain voting to leave before 2008.

There certainly are people - yourself included - who have decided that the EU can be rightfully blamed for any number of things, including the Great Recession and subsequent austerity.
The UK, however, has even less reason to blame EU for austerity than Greece does.

 

[Kyriakos]

That wasnt what i claimed. You dont have to suffer from something in order to dislike it; if someone stabs someone else i wont feel pain yet wouldnt want to be near the criminal either. Britain obviously didnt suffer.

 

[Arakhor]

We absolutely have suffered from austerity, complicated by nine years of Tory policies, as well as several portions each of incompetence, indifference or active malice.

 

[Kyriakos]

We absolutely have suffered from austerity, complicated by nine years of Tory policies, as well as several portions each of incompetence, indifference or active malice.

There is always more room for suffering. Like someone says in hellraiser2: "the doctor recommends... Amputation!".
And imo the biggest worry for britain should be to stay intact if possible.

 

[Arakhor]

Don't worry; we can blame that on the EU too. It's de rigeur around here, it seems.

 

[Kyriakos]

I'd blame john gleese if wales leaves the uk; what he said about the welsh was brutal*.
Then again wales likely will stay even if the queen assumes the form of a lizard.

*

Spoiler :

a race which only exists to do menial jobs for the english

 

[metatron]

We absolutely have suffered from austerity, complicated by nine years of Tory policies, as well as several portions each of incompetence, indifference or active malice.

That's the hilarious part.

We tell the Greeks to have smaller deficits. They refuse to tax their upper middle class, and do austerity instead.
You on the other hand do austerity totally on your own. For god only knows what reasons, totally copulating inexplicably.
And... we get blamed anyway.

 

[Arakhor]

It's why I don't even feel the need to refute Mega Tsunami's hyperbole about Juncker and Tusk doing more for Brexit than "any Briton he knows". If that was the case, we wouldn't have wasted tens of thousands of posts discussing Brexit.

 

[tjs282]

On the other hand, and given how close the vote in their ref was, i think you agree that the result was decided not just by usual english jingoism but also the effects austerity had in tarnishing both image and essense of the eu.

Except that the austerity policy in the UK had eff-all to do with the EU, and everything to do with the Conservatives' usual policy of slashing social welfare spending whenever and wherever they can find (or generate) any excuse to do so...

You on the other hand do austerity totally on your own. For god only knows what reasons, totally copulating inexplicably.

Well don't you know, it was all NuLabour's fault, the Cons had to impose austerity, because Gordon Brown had bankrupted the country, and there weren't any (other) public assets left for the government to sell off to the private sector.

Except the NHS.

Oh, wait...

 

[Kyriakos]

I dont mean that the eu forced austerity on britain; obviously no such thing happened.. i meant that the overall austerity ruin of south eu countries sort of made an impressions on at least enough voters to cause a leave ref result.

 

[Hrothbern]

I can understand very well what you say
But please do be aware that this France-Germany talk is severely rude towards small members, their representatives and their populations !
It happens mostly in the newsmedia and is therefore now ingrained in the popular opinion of many people.

It happens mostly in the newsmedia?

That's funny because you'll be hard pressed to find any newsmedia that has published the text of the recent Franco-German treaty. Signed in Aachen on January 22, with the attendance of the german-french lackeys Juncker and Tusk, and containing such pearls of good intentions towards the other EU members as:

I was referring to general EU topics like Brexit where the newsmedia stop mentioning EU members opinions after they "illustrate" an article with some statement by someone German or French.

What you mention is the Franco-Germany axis. And this last meeting and treaty got indeed not that much attention, much less anyway as the attempts to make a Italian-Poland-Hungary "axis".

And yes, I agree, there is in some French circles quite a lot left of the old empire thinking. Global Britain and Global France. That UK Minister of Defense, boasting that the UK is going to increase its "lethality" and sending his aircraft carrier to China to impose on them international law: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/11/brexit-uk-military-defence-gavin-williamson
And Macron seeking to strenghten French presence in Africa against Chinese influence and whatever else objectives.
And not to forget that Theresa May boasted, during that ABBA dancing visit to Africa, that the UK would get more presence and trade with Africa than any other country in the world.

I just see two desperate heads of states.

And yes, whatever the effects on domestic economies, it will increase the risk of bloody involvements on the geopolitical world stage.

What I understand also about that Franco-German meeting is that France gave up its resistance against the Russian gas going to Germany in that Nord Stream 2 pipeline.
We all play (I guess) the game Civilisation here... Germany is just securing essential resources.
On the geopolitical stage reducing the importance of politics with and within Ukraine (is there BTW any country more corrupt than Ukraine in Europe ? except ofc a couple of *****stans), and appeasing the relation with Russia by economical ties.
The economical route.
And part of that economical route is not giving Africa away "for free" to China, but at minimum expenses.
And part of that Franco-German axis is to build up an European Defense that can protect Europe as a whole with the US (and the UK to a lesser extent) not reliable in-group anymore.

 

[Silurian]

It's why I don't even feel the need to refute Mega Tsunami's hyperbole about Juncker and Tusk doing more for Brexit than "any Briton he knows". If that was the case, we wouldn't have wasted tens of thousands of posts discussing Brexit.

And just think we are not yet half way through the Brexit process.
Even if it is a no deal next month we will still be negotiating a FTA with the EU for years.
Its going to go on and on and on.

 

[Kyriakos]

@Hrothbern do you honestly think french soldiers will go die to protect (eg) finland? Greek ones wont. As long as there is no working sdi there is no way any eu will protect much against a half credible threat, cause protecting a multi-national group (let alone this amalgam...) is only viable at minimal cost of life.

 

[Hrothbern]

@Hrothbern do you honestly think french soldiers will go die to protect (eg) finland? Greek ones wont. As long as there is no working sdi there is no way any eu will protect much, cause protecting a multi-national group is only viable at minimal cost of life.

Minimal cost of life... yes !
Modern warfare is not like Napoleontic times anymore.
It is very capital assets intensive, very R&D intensive, ammo intensive.
Getting that geared up is very much an economical bargaining project. Where and what.
Expanding the nuke power not really involving soldiers anymore.
The body bags will mainly, though not exclusively, be for the local soldiers defending their own country.

 

[Kyriakos]

^if the other side has nukes, the eu will do the noble thing ala usa and not attack it

 

[Hrothbern]

^if the other side has nukes, the eu will do the noble thing ala usa and not attack it

There is no need for the EU to attack anybody with nukes.
The basic "business model" is the same as Korea, Japan, China, etc: grow the economy and make it less vulnerable for geopolitical attacks, by trade, by IP theft, by foreign money extraction, by cyber, etc.

 

[Kyriakos]

There is no need for the EU to attack anybody with nukes.
The basic "business model" is the same as Korea, Japan, China, etc: grow the economy and make it less vulnerable for geopolitical attacks, by trade, by IP theft, by foreign money extraction, by cyber.

Then who will this so needed eu army protect from? Missiles from iran?

 

[Hrothbern]

Then who will this so needed eu army protect from? Missiles from iran?

Says someone living in a country with globally the third highest amount of tanks per capita

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Military/Army/Main-battle-tanks-per-million-people

 

[Kyriakos]

Exactly due to living next to turkey. Expecting the eu to help in case of war would be a really nation-ending idea :/ it would only if it served french-german interest, and you cannot base your life on that.
No one here likes war. Army service isnt popular, it is just needed.

 

[Hrothbern]

Exactly due to living next to turkey. Expecting the eu to help in case of war would be a really nation-ending idea :/ it would only if it served french-german interest, and you cannot base your life on that.
No one here likes war. Army service isnt popular, it is just needed.

I would not feel comfortable as well neighboring Turkey !

I guess that that muscle showing in European countries by Erdogan, to get the Turkish votes in those countries, around his two elections to grab the power in Turkey as strongman was quite revealing for many people in Europe who did not bother to be better informed about Turkey.
(except for the antifa movements who knew about the empire thinking there because of the Grey Wolves)