Brexit Thread VIII: Taking a penalty kick-ing

[Arakhor]

Oh man I'm going to use this one the next time someone says to me "It's really hard to not think you are being a misogynist/sexist/racist/antivaxxer". I'm sure it'll really stop them in their tracks.

Would you have preferred "If all you have to moan about today is other people moaning, then you have a serious case of #FirstWorldProblems"?

Not me, no reason why I should celebrate a pretend exit.

"Get Brexit Done" Boris has merely picked up the EU vassalage treaty that the DUP prevented Theresa May from proceeding with.

Where would we be without your singular viewpoint, Edward?

I know the feeling. But they will fall out amongst themselves. Their defeat of Labour is going to be a very fruitless victory.

Well, yes, that's all but guaranteed. Johnson doesn't like hard work and the reactionary right-wing of the party that prompted this long national suicide has hardly gone away.

 

[Gorbles]

Okay so what then? Should all coins just keep the same design from now on? Perhaps just plain metal with "£0.5" stamped on one side, with no year so that they don't have to be changed annually? Are you genuinely claiming you would have had any issue at all if they'd just announced another Paddington coin? What about all the numerous pound coin designs that serve no practical function, but cost money too?

It is petty, and it is moaning.

I think any way to minimise costs that doesn't involve slashing funding is a good idea, yes. I mean, as usual, you're going all in on the exaggeration, but . . . doesn't that strike you as sensible? If the economy is so fragile, and needs protecting (that requires a decade of continuing austerity, in case you want evidence of such)?

I mean, you don't seem to understand that things like Paddington Bear, the Olympics, etc, are things that cause our economy to grow. To date, Brexit has not done that, in any way that I can measure. The pound is weaker. We're losing bids on manufacturing. The apparently positive aspects (greater freedom of trade, etc) are going to take time and money to establish, if they work at all. I can forgive a cost if it comes from a surplus, even if I think it's entirely frivolous and technically a waste of money. I'm less forgiving of a cost like this.

I mean, are you genuinely claiming you'd be arguing this hard about a coin yourself if it wasn't relevant to Brexit? For someone so lost in this conversation, you're doing a very good job of repeating your personal opinions on pettiness as some kind of established fact.

Personally, I think releasing a coin with a slogan about friendship with other countries after one of our MEPs was last seen in European Parliament basically laughing at them (the silly flag thing, with everybody's favourite Farage) is petty at best. So why not focus your ire with petty acts there? Surely it's a better thing to combat than some opinion online?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Would you have preferred "If all you have to moan about today is other people moaning, then you have a serious case of #FirstWorldProblems"?

That is true, but it is of course deliberately moving the focus away from the legitimacy of what the first group are moaning about, and if all they are moaning about is commemorative coins...

 

[Arakhor]

As I recall, I said it was a waste of time and money and that I barely use any coinage these days. I don't recall passing any comment about throwing the coins in rivers or suchlike.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I think any way to minimise costs that doesn't involve slashing funding is a good idea, yes. I mean, as usual, you're going all in on the exaggeration, but . . . doesn't that strike you as sensible? If the economy is so fragile, and needs protecting?

Call me blithely optimistic, but I don't think the cost of minting new coins is really going to make a dent in anything. The economy can't be that fragile, we're not making millions of solid platinum coins here.

But also it's not really my point, my point is about how this particular coin design, out of all the dozens and dozens of coin designs that get minted all the time, is being singled out as uniquely harmful to the economy. It's pretty obvious the real issue is you just don't like what they coin is commemorating and are dragging in proxy arguments to support your moan. And by "you" I mean "one" again there.

I mean, you don't seem to understand that things like Paddington Bear, the Olympics, etc, are things that cause our economy to grow.

Do the coins with these things on cause the economy to grow themselves though? Are you saying commemorative coins (which always cost money) can only be justified if the things they are commemorating make more money than the coins cost? Even though there would always be more profit without the coins? And do other things, like the 75th anniversary of D-Day or the 950th anniversary of the Battle of Hastings, cause the economy to grow? Was it an absolute travesty to have coins for these?

To date, Brexit has not done that, in any way that I can measure. The pound is weaker. We're losing bids on manufacturing. The apparently positive aspects (greater freedom of trade, etc) are going to take time and money to establish, if they work at all.

Entirely irrelevant to the question of whether the coins themselves are any sort of issue worth moaning about.

I mean, are you genuinely claiming you'd be arguing this hard about a coin yourself if it wasn't relevant to Brexit?

This misses the point that there would be no such discussion of any such coin in the first place if it wasn't. This is just another example of Arakhor's #FirstWorldProblems distraction tactic. Moaning about something completely inane, and then criticising the people who react to that as if they're pulling the thing out of their arse.

 

[Gorbles]

This misses the point that there would be no such discussion of any such coin in the first place if it wasn't. This is just another example of Arakhor's #FirstWorldProblems distraction tactic. Moaning about something completely inane, and then criticising the people who react to that as if they're pulling the thing out of their arse.

In which you neatly reveal you are just here to argue for the sake of it, because the strawman of "moaning" wasn't something that anyone here was doing To borrow your phrase, it was reasonable criticism. You just didn't like it.

 

[Arakhor]

This misses the point that there would be no such discussion of any such coin in the first place if it wasn't. This is just another example of Arakhor's #FirstWorldProblems distraction tactic. Moaning about something completely inane, and then criticising the people who react to that as if they're pulling the thing out of their arse.

You wouldn't be conflating the 'moaning' of people off the forum with comments made in this thread again? That would be implying that people you disagree with all think alike and we know that you'd never think that, right?

 

[Senethro]

When you think about it, an item of value inscribed with a wish is actually just perfect for a Classical period style religious sacrifice. Why not toss it into a body of water that holds significance to you?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You wouldn't be conflating the 'moaning' of people off the forum with comments made in this thread again? That would be implying that people you disagree with all think alike and we know that you'd never think that, right?

No, in a word.

Mega Tsunami made the point that it's "not hard" to call people remoaners when they are indeed moaning about utterly trivial things, to which you replied that no-one ever got any plaudits for doing something "not hard", seemingly making the case that someone pointing out self-evident behaviour is somehow inherently a bad thing. I made a comment about how I would use that argument the next time I was met with a statement about how it was "not hard" to classify me as something, as I was sure it would convince them (this was of course sarcasm). To which you then made a comment about people moaning about other people moaning being the epitome of first world problems. I then categorised this as a distraction tactic, which it obviously is, to move the focus away from the initial topic of moanment, which doesn't magically become any more valid just because the people criticising it aren't starving in poverty in the third world.

You'll have to enlighten me as to where in that chain of events you're seeing me conflating two different groups of people. As far as I can see I'm just criticising two pretty poor arguments, which are (just to be absolutely clear):

1. Calling a spade a spade is somehow wrong or incorrect, just because it's easy to do.
2. Thinking that stating you think a complaint, about someone else making a complaint, is not important somehow invalidates that complaint, or absolves the initial complaint of any critisicm.

 

[really]

The biggest problem with the coin though is 'Peace, prosperity and friendship with all nations.' or 'Peace, prosperity, and friendship with all nations.' Which is correct?

I've had good news today so will have a small celebration, but I was up early so I'm not sure if I will last till 11.

 

[Senethro]

The biggest problem with the coin though is 'Peace, prosperity and friendship with all nations.' or 'Peace, prosperity, and friendship with all nations.' Which is correct?

I've had good news today so will have a small celebration, but I was up early so I'm not sure if I will last till 11.

It should definitely be the second. The lack of comma in the first statement suggests that Britain wants prosperity for other nations, and that is just not plausible.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

In which you neatly reveal you are just here to argue for the sake of it, because the strawman of "moaning" wasn't something that anyone here was doing To borrow your phrase, it was reasonable criticism. You just didn't like it.

See point 2 in my above response. As I said, this is just you pulling that. Me "neatly revealing" myself as being argumentative (as if that was ever in question) doesn't validate the opposite side of the argument.

But also you (and Arakhor it seems) are building your own strawman here, whereby you're claiming I'm criticising the "moaning" of people specifically in this thead. Whereas what I've clearly been arguing all along is that it's justified to call people who are moaning, wherever they may be, moaners. I've even had to specify that I should have used "one" instead of "you" a couple of times to make that clear.

And also of course that moaning specifically about one particular commemorative coin design out of dozens, where the criticisms being levelled apply to all of them equally, is not reasonable criticism. It is moaning.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Do the coins with these things on cause the economy to grow themselves though? Are you saying commemorative coins (which always cost money) can only be justified if the things they are commemorating make more money than the coins cost? Even though there would always be more profit without the coins? And do other things, like the 75th anniversary of D-Day or the 950th anniversary of the Battle of Hastings, cause the economy to grow? Was it an absolute travesty to have coins for these?

The Eurodollar cost about 18c to produce, The UK probably wasted several million melting and reminting millions of commenmorative coins
Which is indicative of the UK government missing several brexit dates due to the lack of planning and wishful thinking. Resulting in the delay of Brexit three times
Woudlnt suprise me if this was a sign of things to come.

 

[uppi]

The Austrians also had commemorative stamps printed for the original Brexit date. But they were clever enough to solve the problem with another pass through the printer:

Spoiler :

 

[Gorbles]

See point 2 in my above response. As I said, this is just you pulling that. Me "neatly revealing" myself as being argumentative (as if that was ever in question) doesn't validate the opposite side of the argument.

But also you (and Arakhor it seems) are building your own strawman here, whereby you're claiming I'm criticising the "moaning" of people specifically in this thead. Whereas what I've clearly been arguing all along is that it's justified to call people who are moaning, wherever they may be, moaners. I've even had to specify that I should have used "one" instead of "you" a couple of times to make that clear.

And also of course that moaning specifically about one particular commemorative coin design out of dozens, where the criticisms being levelled apply to all of them equally, is not reasonable criticism. It is moaning.

I repeatedly have to justify whenever I call bigots bigots, so, I guess that's just an issue on clarification you're going to have to live with. Like you, I don't even have to specify anybody in OT, or even CFC (nor did I for you to start going on about how being called a transphobe is some kind of harsh and unfair label).

Also it seems odd that you simultaneously claim that you're not talking about the moaning in this thread, and then single out one of my arguments in this thread as an example of moaning. I guess you're riding on the semantic use of "people specifically in this thread", and that it's just convenient that my posts are included in this generalised group (repeatedly).

Anyhow, you failed to actually engage with the point not relating to complaining about the coins themselves (i.e. how they're being used as a distraction from the announced cuts), so no, I completely stand by the fact that you're just arguing for the sake of it. You don't want a constructive discussion, and I'm done being strung along with these little jabs. Remember, I have no belief in your good faith anymore. You don't treat me like I have any to start with, so I'm happy to just correct you whenever your overzealous defense of anything relating to things like Brexit (or transphobia) get the better of you

You don't get to decide what is or isn't reasonable criticism. It's your opinion, and nothing more.

 

[Lexicus]

So, Brexit still a Thing? I figured it would become pretty much a non-issue now that the Conservative Party has unchallenged rule over the UK.

 

[Gorbles]

So, Brexit still a Thing? I figured it would become pretty much a non-issue now that the Conservative Party has unchallenged rule over the UK.

Nah, they kinda backed themselves into a corner with the public messaging with it, which I guess is a tiny benefit: they'll actually have to deal with some of the consequences of their actions for once.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Also it seems odd that you simultaneously claim that you're not talking about the moaning in this thread, and then single out one of my arguments in this thread as an example of moaning. I guess you're riding on the semantic use of "people specifically in this thread", and that it's just convenient that my posts are included in this generalised group (repeatedly).

No, I'm calling people who are pro-actively moaning about all this stuff "moaners". Or remoaners, or coinmoaners if you like. Since they are moaning.

For you specifically I'm just saying the things you are saying aren't reasonable criticism. Your points about the financial benefits of the Olympics and Paddington Bear themselves have no bearing on the actual cost of making the coins to commemorate them. The coins still cost and just take away money from whatever the things themselves generate. No less than in this case. It also ignores the other coins for things like the 950th anniversary of the Battle of Hastings (why not wait for the 1000th incidentally?) and the Girl Guides, for which it's harder to make that argument anyway. And it's also nonsense to act like the cost of this batch of coins is going to be enough to cripple the fragile economy. It was also not true to state that wanting political independence is "the opposite of friendship". And just, in general, these are all poor proxy arguments being dragged in for this particular coin, just because you don't like the message being printed on it. So yes, not reasonable criticism at all.

But I'm not going to label you a "moaner" specifically, since this is all coming out in the context of a thread discussing it all and you're reacting to other things said. I could say you're just reacting for the sake of arguing, or #FirstWorldProblems as well, but I'll try to be more charitable

 

[Senethro]

Nah, they kinda backed themselves into a corner with the public messaging with it, which I guess is a tiny benefit: they'll actually have to deal with some of the consequences of their actions for once.

This would require an independent media staffed with professional journalists interested in delivering an accurahahah I'm sorry, it just sounds so ridiculous to my ears that I can't finish it.

 

[Kyriakos]

It is a nice touch that Britain is leaving at midnight Brussels' (CE) time