Can an American please answer a question?

[MobBoss]

To help me understand what you mean, MobBoss, are you saying that moral people are those who keep the commandments, and immoral people do not keep the commandments?

Almost...I'd alter your comment to say those that 'try' to keep the commandments and those that dont try at all.

I also think my comments about man's moral relativism fairly clear as well.

MobBoss, I have a perspective of peoples' post history here that you lack. I've seen some of the worst of useless' bad posts... and from my perspective, he has improved a lot. It's called learning and expanding one's mind and realizing that one's own views are not the only right ones. Sure, you can dredge up somebody's post from years ago and say, "This is a bad poster, look what he said." But you can also find that same person's post from last week and say, "This poster has improved over time. That's a good thing, and should be encouraged."

Do you really want to play this game? I dont really want to search his posts, but i'm fairly sure I can find some that fully portray what I am referring to within recent months, especially since the forum split. So, not from 'years ago' but weeks if not months ago.

By all means if you can find something from Useless in the last few months actually being appreciative of a Christian fundamentalist viewpoint, i'd be glad to see it. Everything i've ever seen him post in that regard has been a huge negative (until his comments here of course).

And i'm not saying Useless is a bad poster....i'm saying his comments here in this thread simply do not reflect his opinion as stated in his usual posts here in the forums.

It's one thing to only do the first... but please give credit where it's due.

Absolutely. If I see it I will.

There have been people on this forum who used to espouse one rigid position on certain issues, but they've either changed their minds (or at least mellowed). I really wish you could bring yourself to acknowledge that, instead of judging people who don't agree with you.

I'm not sure changing your mind on a position is a necessarily a good thing. What if your're right?

Idols have nothing to do with it.

Then I think your missing an important part of understanding that scripture.

 

[BasketCase]

It seems that illegal immigration is becoming more of a hot button topic this year than it has in the past (what with elections and all).

Very true. But not for the reasons most people would think. Prepare for a surprise later on in this post.....

This raises an issue of logic in my mind. Immigration seems like a federal issue, period. After all, we are talking about the laws that determine who may or may not enter the country, not individual states. If states are allowed to make their own immigration laws

That's not what they're doing. It's already illegal at the level of federal law to sneak into the U.S. undocumented; the only American states that are trying to change that are the sanctuary states which are trying to break the law. What states such as Arizona are doing is writing state-level laws to enforce the federal laws that already exist. Arizona is not trying to supercede federal law--Arizona is trying to enforce it.

does that not potentially infringe on every Americans right to free movement throughout the country? I don't think I would like the idea of having to carry my passport every time I decided to take a roadtrip to the next state over (if I lived in the US, that is).

You are aware that you don't actually have the right to drive.....? (No, that's not the surprise) Driving in the U.S. is not a right. It's a privilege, one that the DMV can take away from you pretty much whenever it wants. It's entirely reasonable to require you to carry your driver's license and proof of insurance whenever you drive. The precedent already exists.

Anyway, it seems illogical for anyone to insist that immigration laws be decided locally. Defending and defining the country's border is a federal matter, by definition, isn't it?

Exactly. The reason the states are making their own laws is because the federal government isn't doing its damn job.

Now, I have a surprise for you. Deploying surprise in

5

4

Time out for a second. Dropped the mouse. There we go. Okay, here's the surprise:

The real reason immigration is a hot-button issue right now is plain and simple vote-farming. Obama is in danger of losing the 2012 elections. He really needs votes right now, and his strategy for finding them is to get more illegal immigrants into the country and then into the voting booths (which, Mr. President, is illegal). Illegal immigrants are a highly reliable voting block for him. Ironically, Obama's best strategy for keeping that voting block is to get them into the U.S. and then keep them illegal, so their fear of deportation keeps them voting for Democrats.

Naturally, the Republican game plan is to simply prevent Obama from getting the voting block he's looking for. Neither party really gives half a damn about these people. It's all about the votes.

 

[Berzerker]

And I havent stated that atheists lack morals. To clarify, they have man's morals, which are relative, as opposed to God's morals, which are absolute.

Are genocide and slavery immoral except when God orders these atrocities?

For what its worth, here's the rest of that passage from Matthew where the rich young man asks Jesus what commandments to follow

`Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 honour thy father and mother, and, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.' 20 The young man saith to him, `All these did I keep from my youth; what yet do I lack?' 21 Jesus said to him, `If thou dost will to be perfect, go away, sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, follow me.' 22 And the young man, having heard the word, went away sorrowful, for he had many possessions

Atheists cant do that stuff? Hell, they can do it and without any treasure in Heaven. Why on Earth would I be more impressed by somebody who keeps the same commandments expecting to get treasure (or 72 virgins or whatever) and eternal life?

 

[MobBoss]

Are genocide and slavery immoral except when God orders these atrocities?

Historically men have viewed both as perfectly moral. Has that attitude changed? Of course. Will it continue to change, dependent upon circumstances? Of course.

If I (my family, my nation, my tribe, etc.) had an enemy who could not be reconciled with, and was intent upon my (etc.) destruction, would it be a moral act to destroy them utterly? Man's answer to that is going to change dependent upon the criteria of the moment. Lets envision a far distint future where say, planetary resources are at a minimum, and entire nations go to war over those resouces. Are their actions in order to survive moral or immoral? I'm sure a lot of people would have different answers to that question, hence mans morality being relative to his current situation.

And B, I never said athiests couldnt do that stuff. Of course they can. But, their adherence to that 'stuff' and their moral choices will change dependent upon circumstances surrounding those issues over their lives. God's morals dont change, men's do. Thats all.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

To help me understand what you mean, MobBoss, are you saying that moral people are those who keep the commandments, and immoral people do not keep the commandments?

Almost...I'd alter your comment to say those that 'try' to keep the commandments and those that dont try at all.

Well, let's see... I've looked up the commandments to refresh my memory.

I don't have any god that takes precedence over God. I ignore them all equally (except for Loki and Bast, because the Universe has a crazy sense of humor and I love my cats).

Graven images... like all those statues of Mary and the saints? People bow to them and pray to them all the time.

Taking the Lord's name in vain... I do try to keep my conversation free of "bad words" but as I said to somebody over at Care2 the other day, people can say utterly vile things without a single individual word being remotely profane. It's all in the meaning and reason for uttering them, not in the words themselves.

Keeping the Sabbath holy and doing no work - define "work." I remember 25 years ago or thereabouts, when we had a referendum on whether or not to allow Sunday shopping. The alderman most opposed to this kept ranting about "keeping the Sabbath"... never seeming to recall that he owned a travel agency that operated on Sunday. People rightly called him on his hypocrisy, and we now have Sunday shopping, albeit greatly reduced hours from the rest of the week and not all business have opted in to it.

Honor thy father and thy mother... I honor my father and his family, since they're the people who loved and cared for me. I used to honor my mother until she turned into a judgmental . I think I was about 6 when I stopped honoring her and merely tolerating her. Even so, I do think her second husband treated her abominably, and tried to make her realize that she didn't deserve any of that. And she STILL thinks he was a better husband than my dad, who STILL likes her, even though they've been divorced over 40 years.

Thou shalt not kill... Do one mouse and several hundred insects count? To the best of my recollection, that's the sum total of lifeforms I've deliberately killed in my entire lifetime. Not one human.

Thou shalt not commit adultery... I'm clean on that one. Never committed it, never wanted to, and I do NOT go after men who are in committed relationships of any kind. But I didn't need a holy book to tell me not to do this. I saw for myself how wrong and dishonorable it is.

Thou shalt not steal... Well, I can't claim to be innocent on this one. I have taken things that didn't belong to me. But it's something I've hopefully grown out of and have matured past such childish, antisocial behavior.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor... I'm not quite sure what this one means, exactly. Does it mean in court? A general prohibition against lying? Either way, I take my word of honor very seriously, and do my best to be as truthful as possible. I won't even make up dumb answers when pollsters or market researchers call on the phone ().

Coveting my neighbor's stuff... Guilty. I've done a lot of coveting in my life, but not too much lately. The worst in recent memory was when my neighbors had those incredibly adorable, incredibly friendly little black kittens. I coveted them a LOT, and would happily have adopted the whole lot of them if I'd been allowed to have more than 2 cats in my (then-new) apartment. I hope their humans have given them a good home all these years...

So, MobBoss... based on the above, and on your recollection of our interactions over the years, would you say I'm a moral person?

Do you really want to play this game?

What game? I was speaking in general. There are people on this forum (including useless) who were problematic posters, but they have improved, and in some cases have completely turned themselves around. It's not fair to judge people solely on the basis of what they wrote a long time ago - or even last week, if they're trying to work out their own thoughts on an issue or understand something.

I'm not sure changing your mind on a position is a necessarily a good thing. What if your're right?

And what if you're wrong? Or at least in need of being more flexible on an issue?

 

[timtofly]

Then I think your missing an important part of understanding that scripture.

From the portion that you used, I see that it is an imortant point that every human is a moral agent capable of keeping all of the commands.

I also understand that it is not just idols that people place in front of them that separate them from God. Everything, every person, every idea, can come between any human and God.

Spoiler :

Keeping any or all commands does not bring one to God. It allows humans to exist in peace in this life. Rejecting the choice that God gives to each person on an individual level that may seem hard and outright impossible to do is what keeps a human from God. It takes faith to accomplish this choice, and that is what God is looking for.

 

[MobBoss]

Well, let's see... I've looked up the commandments to refresh my memory.

I don't have any god that takes precedence over God. I ignore them all equally (except for Loki and Bast, because the Universe has a crazy sense of humor and I love my cats).

As a humanist, you put humans over God. OR in your particular case, you love your cats more than God.

Graven images... like all those statues of Mary and the saints? People bow to them and pray to them all the time.

And as a Prostestant, I think they are wrong to do that.

Taking the Lord's name in vain... I do try to keep my conversation free of "bad words" but as I said to somebody over at Care2 the other day, people can say utterly vile things without a single individual word being remotely profane. It's all in the meaning and reason for uttering them, not in the words themselves.

Fair enough. Giving full disclosure I probably violate this more than you do by virtue of being in the military.

Keeping the Sabbath holy and doing no work - define "work." I remember 25 years ago or thereabouts, when we had a referendum on whether or not to allow Sunday shopping. The alderman most opposed to this kept ranting about "keeping the Sabbath"... never seeming to recall that he owned a travel agency that operated on Sunday. People rightly called him on his hypocrisy, and we now have Sunday shopping, albeit greatly reduced hours from the rest of the week and not all business have opted in to it.

Again, by virtue of being in the military, I havent been able to totally adhere to this one either.

Honor thy father and thy mother... I honor my father and his family, since they're the people who loved and cared for me. I used to honor my mother until she turned into a judgmental . I think I was about 6 when I stopped honoring her and merely tolerating her. Even so, I do think her second husband treated her abominably, and tried to make her realize that she didn't deserve any of that. And she STILL thinks he was a better husband than my dad, who STILL likes her, even though they've been divorced over 40 years.

OK.

Thou shalt not kill... Do one mouse and several hundred insects count? To the best of my recollection, that's the sum total of lifeforms I've deliberately killed in my entire lifetime. Not one human.

Probably the easist one to keep...and fwiw, I read this as 'thou shalt not murder', not 'kill'.

Thou shalt not commit adultery... I'm clean on that one. Never committed it, never wanted to, and I do NOT go after men who are in committed relationships of any kind. But I didn't need a holy book to tell me not to do this. I saw for myself how wrong and dishonorable it is.

You've never had sex? Because biblically, pre-martial sex is also adultery. Just sayin.

Thou shalt not steal... Well, I can't claim to be innocent on this one. I have taken things that didn't belong to me. But it's something I've hopefully grown out of and have matured past such childish, antisocial behavior.

Ok

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor... I'm not quite sure what this one means, exactly. Does it mean in court? A general prohibition against lying? Either way, I take my word of honor very seriously, and do my best to be as truthful as possible. I won't even make up dumb answers when pollsters or market researchers call on the phone ().

I'd say it covers any kind of falsehood stated against your neighbors, to include false gossip.

Coveting my neighbor's stuff... Guilty. I've done a lot of coveting in my life, but not too much lately. The worst in recent memory was when my neighbors had those incredibly adorable, incredibly friendly little black kittens. I coveted them a LOT, and would happily have adopted the whole lot of them if I'd been allowed to have more than 2 cats in my (then-new) apartment. I hope their humans have given them a good home all these years...

Ok.

So, MobBoss... based on the above, and on your recollection of our interactions over the years, would you say I'm a moral person?

Your still an atheist. What do you believe drives your morals? Solidifies them? Are you honest enough to admit those morals might change depending upon your circumstance?

And what if you're wrong? Or at least in need of being more flexible on an issue?

Then i'll admit it....and if you followed my posts over the years, you should remember that I have indeed done so over some very few issues. Not many, but it does happen.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

As a humanist, you put humans over God. OR in your particular case, you love your cats more than God.

I put my faith in humanity's ability to learn, and act on what we've learned. I put my faith in humanity's capacity to be better. God isn't necessary for that, in my opinion. And yes, I love my cats more than I love what I consider to be imaginary. I don't worship them, though.

And as a Prostestant, I think they are wrong to do that.

See, it's not so hard to agree on something, is it? Even if it's for different reasons.

Probably the easist one to keep...and fwiw, I read this as 'thou shalt not murder', not 'kill'.

In the interest of full disclosure, I must admit to two others: I caught two fish back in 1968, when we went camping along the North Saskatchewan River on Labor Day weekend (and they were delicious). I'm no vegetarian by any means, but that's the only time I ever actually caught my own food and was responsible for it being dead. And there are militant vegans who would indeed consider that I'd murdered those fish.

You've never had sex? Because biblically, pre-martial sex is also adultery. Just sayin.

I was raised by my grandparents, so in a lot of ways, my outlook is considered old-fashioned. Even though there were things we fought over, this is one thing my conscience has yet to tell me is a bad way to see the issue.

Do I see premarital sex as a sin? No. How I see it depends a lot on the individual situation. If it's between consenting adults, neither of whom is in a committed relationship with somebody else, that's one thing (and their business only). But if one of the participants is cheating on somebody else, that's despicable. I saw both my parents' marriage and my mother's second marriage break up because one of the participants was unfaithful and dishonorable.

I'd say it covers any kind of falsehood stated against your neighbors, to include false gossip.

Okay... so then define "neighbors", because that's always confused me a little. Was it literally one's neighbor that's meant, or just anyone else in general?

Your still an atheist. What do you believe drives your morals? Solidifies them? Are you honest enough to admit those morals might change depending upon your circumstance?

My conscience drives my morals. My upbringing drives my morals, to some extent. There are some things my family tried to make me believe that I either never did, or that I've deprogrammed from believing (ie. in children's rights to an opinion and women being subordinate to the male family members).

Of course my morals might change. I have no way of knowing what circumstances I might face that could necessitate going against what I believe is right, and coming to the conclusion that under those circumstances I did the right thing. Just because I can't imagine anything like that happening right now, doesn't mean it might not. I hope I can keep to the morals I've lived with, but I'd be an idiot to think that they're 100% impervious. Nobody can know that until they're faced with the one situation that can knock their morality on its metaphorical behind.

Then i'll admit it....and if you followed my posts over the years, you should remember that I have indeed done so over some very few issues. Not many, but it does happen.

I've read a lot of your posts over the years, but by no means all of them. However, based on some of our conversations, I do remember a few times. As you say - not many, but it did happen.

 

[sophie]

If I (my family, my nation, my tribe, etc.) had an enemy who could not be reconciled with, and was intent upon my (etc.) destruction, would it be a moral act to destroy them utterly?

No, no it absolutely would not. Ever.

 

[JollyRoger]

Your still an atheist. What do you believe drives your morals? Solidifies them? Are you honest enough to admit those morals might change depending upon your circumstance?

How is that any different than God? The Bible shows him constantly changing.

 

[Flying Pig]

Your still an atheist. What do you believe drives your morals? Solidifies them? Are you honest enough to admit those morals might change depending upon your circumstance?

Yes, and it's a very arrogant man who will say otherwise.

 

[Cannae]

Indeed it would be. However, it's a symptom of a bigger problem within Mexico. The people there are often extremely impoverished and feel little to loose from sneaking into the United States. NAFTA most certainly didn't help matters out eaither.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Fair enough. Giving full disclosure I probably violate this more than you do by virtue of being in the military.

Does being in the military actually require you to take the name of God in vain. I suspect that it may add a considerable temptation, but not any necessity or excuse. If breaking God's commandments actually is a prerequisite to military service, then that makes your choice to join and stay in the army sinful.

Again, by virtue of being in the military, I havent been able to totally adhere to this one either.

The Sabbath is Saturday rather than Sunday. Also, keeping the sabbath was never considered mandatory for non-Jews while guests in a Jewish household out of respect for one's host. For those who do consider the commandment to apply to them though, then my previous statements about choosing military service apply.

You've never had sex? Because biblically, pre-martial sex is also adultery. Just sayin.

Premarital sex is not the same as adultery in the bible. In the New Testament premarital sex (unless the other party is married) is at most classified as porneia, which is a general term that can refer to any sort of sexual immorality even though in its original usage it referred exclusively to prostitution. Adultery may count as a subcategory of porneia, but it is referred to with the distinct term moicheia. Since the vast majority of the men to whom Jesus spoke were married, porneia would also be moicheia, but that does not make them synonyms.


The commandment in the Decalogue actually uses the Hebrew term Na'aph, which quite specifically refers to sexual relations between a married woman and a man who is not her husband. Strictly speaking it does not include sexual relations that married men have with single women, as the Greek and English terms do. Modern Jews would tend to count both types of adultery under the general prohibition against sexual immorality found in the Noahide Laws though, which applies to the entire human race instead of just Jews.

Most of the New Testament positive references to relations between husband and his wife more literally say between a man and his woman. It is not at all clear in the original Greek that marriage is necessary for sex not to be sinful. It is pretty clearly against promiscuity though.

Jews historically have not considered the rituals or contracts of marriage to be necessary for gentiles. The rabbinical position was that for non-Jews committed cohabitation was equivalent to marriage.

I'd say it covers any kind of falsehood stated against your neighbors, to include false gossip.

Yes, but the key word is against. White lies that do not harm anyone are not forbidden by this commandment, although as it can be hard to predict what could be harmful in every circumstance it is better to avoid them.

Orthodox Jews actually consider malicious gossip to be a subcategory of murder, as the intent is to kill someone's reputation.

 

[MobBoss]

Does being in the military actually require you to take the name of God in vain. I suspect that it may add a considerable temptation, but not any necessity or excuse. If breaking God's commandments actually is a prerequisite to military service, then that makes your choice to join and stay in the army sinful.

Well, I was referring to cursing in general, but No, it doesnt 'require' it, but its an issue of proximity and frequency. In other words, when your wrestling with the pigs, its hard to not get muddy. And if one does slip out, i'm usually quick with the sigh and the 'please forgive me that' right after.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Your still an atheist. What do you believe drives your morals? Solidifies them? Are you honest enough to admit those morals might change depending upon your circumstance?

So you think all non-theists are consequentialists? Haven't you ever read any of the ancient moralists? Aristotle? Seneca? Marcus Aurelius?

Also, I'll specifically note having seen you defer to utilitarianism at times, which is a consequentialist morality. And "vae victis" isn't exactly virtue ethics.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Jews historically have not considered the rituals or contracts of marriage to be necessary for gentiles. The rabbinical position was that for non-Jews committed cohabitation was equivalent to marriage.

Did they have any further rules about the cohabitation - duration, was it possible to terminate the marriage by one of the partners moving out, what were the legal and financial obligations to each other, and to any possible children?

Yes, but the key word is against. White lies that do not harm anyone are not forbidden by this commandment, although as it can be hard to predict what could be harmful in every circumstance it is better to avoid them.

I really don't like "white" lies. A lie is a lie. If you don't want to tell the straight-out truth, there are other ways to make it less hurtful without lying. This is stuff my mother and grandmother would do to me all the time, thinking it would be easier on me. Well, it may have been easier for them - but when I found out the lie, it really hurt my ability to trust them. Even to this day, I'm wondering what else my mother lied to me about, that I haven't caught her on yet?

This is why I don't give false praise. If I say something positive about someone here on CFC, you can be sure that it is how I honestly feel.

Orthodox Jews actually consider malicious gossip to be a subcategory of murder, as the intent is to kill someone's reputation.

Interesting... a few months back, I read an article about Orthodox Jews' maliciousness toward non-Jewish mothers and their female children, calling the girls some very nasty names because they weren't covered up to the same extent that a Jewish girl would be expected to be. This went beyond names, though, and it left some very traumatized kids and mothers.

 

[timtofly]

Did they have any further rules about the cohabitation - duration, was it possible to terminate the marriage by one of the partners moving out, what were the legal and financial obligations to each other, and to any possible children?


I really don't like "white" lies. A lie is a lie. If you don't want to tell the straight-out truth, there are other ways to make it less hurtful without lying. This is stuff my mother and grandmother would do to me all the time, thinking it would be easier on me. Well, it may have been easier for them - but when I found out the lie, it really hurt my ability to trust them. Even to this day, I'm wondering what else my mother lied to me about, that I haven't caught her on yet?

This is why I don't give false praise. If I say something positive about someone here on CFC, you can be sure that it is how I honestly feel.


Interesting... a few months back, I read an article about Orthodox Jews' maliciousness toward non-Jewish mothers and their female children, calling the girls some very nasty names because they weren't covered up to the same extent that a Jewish girl would be expected to be. This went beyond names, though, and it left some very traumatized kids and mothers.

There are most definetly some Jews who wished the Palestinians were dead, and use words instead of bombs. Does the right do the same in the US, when it comes to immigration? I think the Orthodox Jews feel the Palestinians are unwanted immigrants.

 

[Cutlass]

I think the Orthodox Jews feel the Palestinians are unwanted immigrants.

Which is terrible, since those Palestinian families have been there for centuries that most of the Jewish families were not present...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

There are most definetly some Jews who wished the Palestinians were dead, and use words instead of bombs. Does the right do the same in the US, when it comes to immigration? I think the Orthodox Jews feel the Palestinians are unwanted immigrants.

I wouldn't know about the US situation, since I'm Canadian. And the non-Jews in the article I read were actually Christian women and their daughters.

 

[Lord Gay]

But, their adherence to that 'stuff' and their moral choices will change dependent upon circumstances surrounding those issues over their lives. God's morals dont change, men's do. Thats all.

Perhaps you can clarify Mob. Do you feel that theists (Christians) should NOT adjust rules to a given situation, or rather that God has created rules for all specific situations and Christians should not deviate from them?

For example, even if people agree that ending life is wrong, people do not agree that that holds true in all instances. People have different views on abortion, killing abortion doctors, suicide, assisted suicide, capital punishment, self defense, and war. We have different words for killing, murder, assassination, execution, termination, abortion and mercy-killing. Saying 'thou shalt not kill' is an overly broad term, unless one is meant to apply it to all cases of ending life.

Perhaps you mean that atheists may disagree over a specific situation, while theists are expected to all agree on the same situation?