Castro: Cuban Model no longer works

[innonimatu]

When Che was in Congo, he waited hours to met with the leader of the rebel (Che wasn't the leader there, he was just helping them). When the guy arrive, he was accompanied with 2 prostitutes. This is when Che realize that revolution was gonna fail: the man behind it was just as petty as the leaders of the country. Would he have succeed, the country wouldn't have change, a common trend in Africa.

True enough...

So your telling me that Cuba prior to Castro was "unusually tolerable"? Perhaps for the people living in Habana and working for rich american it was. Heck even in 1920's Germany, the Weimar republic didn't fall. Hitler's coup fail but the communist takeover of Bavaria didn't work either. Why? Because for all it's problem, post-WW1 Germany was not bad enough to make people want to die to change it. Yet, when a band of beared men arrive in Cuba, thousand of people quickly join their rank once they realize they had a chance to change their country.

Well, Miles Teg was right, Cuba under Batista wasn't that intolerable. Yes, he was a dictator, and he did kill some political enemies. And he was universally despised. Hell, if 18 men with even fewer guns between them managed to overthrow the government in 8 months, that says a lot about Batista's popularity...
However, Batista was not nearly as bad as a Trujillo, or even a Pinochet. Castro managed to organize opposition to him while still in law school, and so did many others. A Pinochet would have had them all shot in some stadium or drowned in the ocean.

And about the permanence of the cuban political regime beyond Fidel Castro's death: whatever people here may say about him, I think we can agree that he was possibly the most charismatic leader in Latin America during the whole 20th century. Cuba became communist because he pushed for that and people followed him. And while I'm sure that there are a million or so former cubans who hate him, in Florida, most of the population in Cuba genuinely likes him. He should have proposed a president elected through universal suffrage, and run for office, he'd have won easily and silenced many critics (their non-party attempt at representative democracy is too odd to be generally accepted elsewhere, as things stand now, as democracy). But there's no one capable of succeeding him in with that level of popularity. When he dies, the political future of Cuba will be open for discussion.
However, I don't expect the cubans to suddenly "embrace capitalism". There won't be a revolution, but there will be big changes. But, anyway, just the mere end of the US embargo on Cuba would have been enough to cause big changes, now or anytime in the past. And I suspect that Castro's death will be seized as an opportunity for dropping the embargo without losing face.

 

[Xanikk999]

True enough...



Well, Miles Teg was right, Cuba under Batista wasn't that intolerable. Yes, he was a dictator, and he did kill some political enemies. And he was universally despised. Hell, if 18 men with even fewer guns between them managed to overthrow the government in 8 months, that says a lot about Batista's popularity...
However, Batista was not nearly as bad as a Trujillo, or even a Pinochet. Castro managed to organize opposition to him while still in law school, and so did many others. A Pinochet would have had them all shot in some stadium or drowned in the ocean.

And about the permanence of the cuban political regime beyond Fidel Castro's death: whatever people here may say about him, I think we can agree that he was possibly the most charismatic leader in Latin America during the whole 20th century. Cuba became communist because he pushed for that and people followed him. And while I'm sure that there are a million or so former cubans who hate him, in Florida, most of the population in Cuba genuinely likes him. He should have proposed a president elected through universal suffrage, and run for office, he'd have won easily and silenced many critics (their non-party attempt at representative democracy is too odd to be generally accepted elsewhere, as things stand now, as democracy). But there's no one capable of succeeding him in with that level of popularity. When he dies, the political future of Cuba will be open for discussion.
However, I don't expect the cubans to suddenly "embrace capitalism". There won't be a revolution, but there will be big changes. But, anyway, just the mere end of the US embargo on Cuba would have been enough to cause big changes, now or anytime in the past. And I suspect that Castro's death will be seized as an opportunity for dropping the embargo without losing face.

Are you sure? Everything i read about Batista proved him to be a total monster and self serving dictator.

He allowed foreign corporations to exploit the countryside of Cubas natural resources and did nothing to invest in his own countries economy. He also had deals with mobsters in the U.S and granted some of them asylum and allowed them to continue their corrupt dealings in cuba.

Batista amassed a fortune by exploiting the people who lived there (Oh man i am sounding like a commie, im not though!). His rule became so unpopular he used his secret police to terrorize entire communities which eventually rose against him and forced him out. In the end he ended up flying to the portugal with several hundred of millions of dollars that was never recovered and because of his actions to this day Cuba is still an extremely poor country.

 

[Takhisis]

because of his actions to this day Cuba is still an extremely poor country.

After half a century of Castrist dictatorship you still maintain that present-day Cuba's woes are Batista's fault?

 

[Xanikk999]

After half a century of Castrist dictatorship you still maintain that present-day Cuba's woes are Batista's fault?

Well he didnt help it and Castro didnt either with his failed communist state. So basically Cuba has been poor ever since thier war of independence with spain and have never significantly devoloped themselves.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Batista was an utterly corrupt dictator no doubt but he was a lightweight and he really doesn't compare to his contemporaries such as Pinochet or Trujillo. His inability to wield his power was one of the reasons he fell so easily. If not for the revolution he would have been rather forgettable as a dictator.

 

[civver_764]

(Oh man i am sounding like a commie, im not though!).

Don't fight it.

America is undoubtedly responsible for a lot of Cuba's problems today with our sadistic embargo.

 

[Ajidica]

We can't blame the whole thing on the embargo. Marxism-Leninism doesn't work.

 

[Takhisis]

Chávez's narcissist-leninist model don't work either.

 

[Tani Coyote]

Maybe he's going the old route of giving penance for his misdeeds just as his train of life is pulling into the last station...

---

Anyway, this is good. I hope they will eventually go Chinese economically.

At least then we could lift this pointless blockade since its very reason for existence would be removed.

And of course, I hope for social/political reforms, but one step at a time...

 

[civver_764]

We can't blame the whole thing on the embargo. Marxism-Leninism doesn't work.

Who's to say that Cuba wouldn't have given the workers' more rights if we hadn't blocked all trade to them? Do you realize how detrimental that is to their economy? Soviet style "socialism" isn't the best but it was better than the regime preceding.

narcissist-leninist

Haven't heard that one before. You guys aren't even trying to make sense.

 

[Ajidica]

No, going the way of the Chinese is bad. The rich get richer and the poor get exploited in the workers paradise.

 

[Tani Coyote]

No, going the way of the Chinese is bad. The rich get richer and the poor get exploited in the workers paradise.

And yet economic growth is unprecedented, and in turn, that tends to improve the livelihoods of all people. Also a nice boost to national morale to go from crap to gold.

...provided you set some legal safeguards though for workers. China has an issue with that if I recall.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Don't fight it.

America is undoubtedly responsible for a lot of Cuba's problems today with our sadistic embargo.

You can't argue that they didn't repay us for the trouble in full, though. *cough* Cuban Missile Crisis *cough*. Real potential ally of America there, holding nukes as proxy for the Soviet Union. While arguably a lot of trouble and heart-ache could have been avoided by just letting Cuba be, as demonstrated by the Missile Crisis, Cuba is in a great location to levy some kind of threat against the United States if the island was in the control of a more capable power, and you could argue that it would be far more unintelligent for it to simply be let go to the other side of the Iron Curtain.

 

[Tani Coyote]

You can't argue that they didn't repay us for the trouble in full, though. *cough* Cuban Missile Crisis *cough*. Real potential ally of America there, holding nukes as proxy for the Soviet Union. While arguably a lot of trouble and heart-ache could have been avoided by just letting Cuba be, as demonstrated by the Missile Crisis, Cuba is in a great location to levy some kind of threat against the United States if the island was in the control of a more capable power, and you could argue that it would be far more unintelligent for it to simply be let go to the other side of the Iron Curtain.

This just gives more reason why we should've made them Puerto Rico 2.0 when we had the chance.

That way, no Batista OR Castro! Just an island that can't decide where it wants to stand in relation to us.

 

[Lord of Elves]

This just gives more reason why we should've made them Puerto Rico 2.0 when we had the chance.

That way, no Batista OR Castro! Just an island that can't decide where it wants to stand in relation to us.

Bring back Theodore Roosevelt; he'll ship that mess into shape.

Pax Americana!

 

[civver_764]

1) The Cold War ended 20 years ago.

2) The main reason Cuba was so hostile to us in the first place was because of our actions.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Chávez's narcissist-leninist model don't work either.

Chavez is a Trot.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

No one in this thread has said Cuba is awesome, but the ideas behind the revolution were completely admirable.

Didn't you know? Not joining the chorus of demonization and condemnation in full force means you think its awesome 100%!

 

[Lord of Elves]

1) The Cold War ended 20 years ago.

2) The main reason Cuba was so hostile to us in the first place was because of our actions.

Which ones, exactly? Ostentatiously, we "liberated", them from an "oppressive", Spanish colonial government, though by the time of the revolution that was decades in the past. They pretty quickly got back some form of sovereignty, at least not as a nominal dominion of the United States (Puerto Rico), after said incident, and since then and prior to the Revolution were a quiet vacation spot with a head of state unpopular with the native population.

Addressing the first portion of your post, exactly, the Cold War is over. Communism is a dead societal force in the immediate vision of the geopolitical stage, so Castro's "system", has no place in the "modern world", as it were. It's natural to expect his regime to die out with him and his immediate lieutenants. Addressing any sort of message for observation and study to his efforts is a point best left well alone; the Cuban Revolution has no meaning anymore. It is history, will remain so barring any sort of major conflict within Cuba following the end of the "Castro Regime", and will fade well into the past as time moves on.

 

[Xanikk999]

Which ones, exactly? Ostentatiously, we "liberated", them from an "oppressive", Spanish colonial government, though by the time of the revolution that was decades in the past. They pretty quickly got back some form of sovereignty, at least not as a nominal dominion of the United States (Puerto Rico), after said incident, and since then and prior to the Revolution were a quiet vacation spot with a head of state unpopular with the native population.

It might have to do with our support of the oppressive regime of batista and the fact we supplied him with weapons to further oppress the citizens of the country who ended up rebelling. Oh and none of the aid we gave to them was food/economic aid, just weapons to kill their own civilians with.