If that was precisely what had happened, this wouldn't be the discussion it is. I mean, apart from the discussion of wearing a MAGA hat, in a group, and what that means symbolically, but I can't seem to have that discussion.
CNN Settles Sandmann Defamation Suit
- Thread starter abradley
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Well, an AT&T subsidiary attacked a teenager, for profit. It's hard to expand the conversation when media is a bad-faith actor from the very beginning of the story.
@El_Machinae
And other publications will have profited from defending the teenagers, and / or disparaging Phillips. The problem with media in general is how it's constantly pushed towards the bottom line. This shouldn't be a concern levelled specifically at outlets critical of the teenagers.
And if that's the disqualifying line, then we can't discuss any event where the media attacks a teenager on basis of their age (like when people pointed out Greta Thunsberg). But we do, for pages. My apologies if I've misunderstood you, but I don't think that that is somehow so bad faith it makes for an difficult discussion. Difficult to propose realistic improvements that could prevent something like this from happening again, perhaps. But that applies to a lot of things.
1. He served in the Marine Corps, starting in '72. This is in Wikipedia.
2. He was discharged. It wasn't dishonourable. This is in Wikipedia.
3. He doesn't remember that time well. You can claim an outright lie if you want, but there are many reasons why someone might not remember events reliably 40 years ago.
4. He has a history of activism, including annual ceremonies respecting Native veterans, for which people might want to think positively of him.
You want to claim everything he says into a lie, be my guest. I just wish you were this critical of anyone else, including the teenagers.
And other publications will have profited from defending the teenagers, and / or disparaging Phillips. The problem with media in general is how it's constantly pushed towards the bottom line. This shouldn't be a concern levelled specifically at outlets critical of the teenagers.
And if that's the disqualifying line, then we can't discuss any event where the media attacks a teenager on basis of their age (like when people pointed out Greta Thunsberg). But we do, for pages. My apologies if I've misunderstood you, but I don't think that that is somehow so bad faith it makes for an difficult discussion. Difficult to propose realistic improvements that could prevent something like this from happening again, perhaps. But that applies to a lot of things.
As this has now morphed into "let's defend every single time luiz calls Phillips a liar", I'm going to refute this one set of claims and leave it at that. Your attitude is getting increasingly offensive and you aren't being fair with who you choose to be critical of.
1. He served in the Marine Corps, starting in '72. This is in Wikipedia.
2. He was discharged. It wasn't dishonourable. This is in Wikipedia.
3. He doesn't remember that time well. You can claim an outright lie if you want, but there are many reasons why someone might not remember events reliably 40 years ago.
4. He has a history of activism, including annual ceremonies respecting Native veterans, for which people might want to think positively of him.
You want to claim everything he says into a lie, be my guest. I just wish you were this critical of anyone else, including the teenagers.
I mean, both things could be a problem? Possibly?
Farm Boy
run boy run
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No, son. I followed the "news" story, some. I make no argument anyone is on the up and up. But I know who isn't. And I'm not about to start digging, hard, into dirty laundry that's only an issue because a bunch of lying capitalist *******s picked a scapegoat because hats. Who is whose tool is more interesting than the story anyhow, Brit.
Interesting is a matter of opinion, as is your belief in who you choose to criticise for faults. You want to focus on the media, be my guest. But downplaying the teenagers in any form is a position in of itself, that you chose to do. Own that choice. I can't make ya, of course, but I've also made too much of this as it is.
Estebonrober
Deity
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No one is arguing CNN sucks. I just would t have settled. It wasn’t that kind of story.
Berzerker
Deity
Do you think Phillips would have walked up to a black or brown kid wearing a maga hat?
He pushed for and signed a legislative repeal of some of the more outrageous aspects of the drug war, a drug war promoted by the current front runner for the Democrat's nomination, a drug war that dis-proportionally targets black people.
I'm forgetful but I'd know if I served in Vietnam.
Zkribbler
Deity
It would be really hard to find black or brown kids who are white supremacists.
I mean, they exist, especially with respect to white supremacist movements that often ensnare people to a benevolently-worded cause. But definitely a relative rarity 
This is what I was trying to illustrate - peoples' judgement of Phillips, but not the teenagers, comes down to making a choice in that regard, to alter their level of criticism based on the person they're criticising. This doesn't work in the reverse, and there's a thread on it so I don't want to touch on it too much, because the hat is a visible, surface-level thing that can be debated. Phillips' past, and truthfulness, are deeper than that, and rely on things being dredged up from years past, or in the cases I've seen in this thread, flat out willfully misinterpreted.
There are worse things than forgetfulness, and discounting the entirety of the medical field for a second, ways people can convince themselves of anything, particularly for an event they find harrowing or traumatic. Like I said to others, if you want to fixate on that, go for it. But the other things that were claimed to be lies, aren't. There may be a distinction between a Vietnam veteran and a Vietnam-era veteran, but it's a relatively fine distinction to make when people here regularly go on long, long tangents about how things might not be racist and you don't need to read into things so negatively.
This is what I was trying to illustrate - peoples' judgement of Phillips, but not the teenagers, comes down to making a choice in that regard, to alter their level of criticism based on the person they're criticising. This doesn't work in the reverse, and there's a thread on it so I don't want to touch on it too much, because the hat is a visible, surface-level thing that can be debated. Phillips' past, and truthfulness, are deeper than that, and rely on things being dredged up from years past, or in the cases I've seen in this thread, flat out willfully misinterpreted.
Berzerker
Deity
It would be really hard to find black or brown kids who are white supremacists.
I've seen black people in maga hats and Phillips would have walked right around them to find a white boy to harass. Just like how he walked around the BHI dudes to find Sandmann. I dont blame Indians for hating whitie, I hate what happened to them and I am a whitie. But this Phillips dude is just a liar.
My only quibble with Sandmann is I would have backed off a couple steps instead of defiantly standing my ground, but that comes down to personal taste and pales in comparison to what Phillips and BHI did. And thats not even getting into what the god awful media did to Sandmann.
I don't know even where to begin with this.
1- A Vietnam-era vet is not the same as a Vietnam Vet, legally or in spoken English. Vietnam Vets must have, you know, gone to Vietnam. Phillips claimed many times to be a Vietnam vet, but he isn't. That's a lie.
2- he claimed specifically to have been on the theater in Vietnam. That's a bald faced lie.
3- nobody that does not suffer from severe dementia would forget about not being deployed to Vietnam. He may forget some details of the time, but not the rather big fact he never went to the Vietnam theater. So he lied when he claimed he did.
4- his version of events during the Lincoln Memorial incident was found to be false by journalists who analyzed hours of video evidence. The students version of the events was found to be true. The students never changed "build the wall". The students never hostilized the Black racists. The students did not walk into Phillips and block he path. He walked towards them.
He lied, the students told the truth. And yet, it was ONLY the students, not Phillips or the Black Hebrew Israélites, who were singled out for abuse. The media coverage of the events was so bad it was not even one-sided, it was plain false. Which is why media outlets such as CNN and the NYT admitted they got it wrong and heavily edited their stories.
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Manfred Belheim
Moaner Lisa
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Well I saw the video months ago and as far as I remembered that's precisely what happened. After I posted that I read your reply where you denied that was what the video showed, and I'm at work right now so I'm not going to go hunting the clip down.
Don't care about his hat, not relevant.
Cool, you have a different recollection to me. I didn't really have the time to go digging, either, so no harm there. The salient point is you don't care about the hat, which there's a separate thread for now anyway, so I won't drag this out further.
Manfred Belheim
Moaner Lisa
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When it's a question of who of two people got up in whom's face, then the salient point is... which one of them did it. Not what hat either of them might have been wearing*. This is why I don't care about the hat. The salient point to me is that you consider the hat to be the salient point.
* the only obvious exception I can think of to this is if one of them happened to be wearing a hat with "please come and get up in my face" written on it.
I've been trying, consistently, to take your return as a positive, Manfred, but you're being disingenuous here. You have a different personal recollection of videos to me, videos that neither of us have to hand. I didn't disrespect, or argue, with your interpretation. The least you could do is offer me the same respect, for something I don't want to hash out any further. If you're truly interested in exploring the event, please send me a PM.
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