Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Leoreth]

That said, we could also use the Shreni themselves as UP theme.

 

[civ_king]

I can guarantee you Britain imported more tech then exported from India...

Also India's roads were good?

After Britain ran India into the ground economically (dropping from 25% global GDP to 3% is extreme devastation). Life in India took a drastic turn for the worse after the British came, many famines. Before that India was fairly advanced.

Gupta Imperial roads were very good.

 

[civ_king]

Actually Sreni would be a way better name for it

 

[AOS9001]

So nobody else wants to see Chinese Musketmen on the Mongol spawn?

@Adien: There are probably some civs which have similar UPs as it is.

I do, but that's me. What I really want to see, still, is a Chinese respawn sometime around 1500. I don't know if it's been implemented yet, I haven't updated for a few days, because I want to finish a few games.

 

[ilduce349]

Where did you get that statistic?

According to Angus Madison, in the year 1600 (with Britain starting to colonize India in 1612) was 23% of the worlds GDP.

100 years later, it was 24% of the world.

120 years later, it was 16%.

50 years later it was 12%. Now lets disect that number. Over the 270 years listed, India's GDP doubled, but the worlds GDP quadrupled. That was of no fault of the British.

Lets look at America over the past 50 years:
http://www.google.ca/publicdata/exp...untry:USA&ifdim=country&tdim=true&hl=en&dl=en

In 1960, America had 40% of the worlds GDP.
In 2010, It had 24%. In other words by your logic, Americans were better off in the 60s then today. NOT THE CASE! India's GDP doubled under British Rule (granted its population also doubled), it was not Britain's fault that America's went up 100 fold over the same time period.

 

[Linkman226]

Sreni sounds good- unlimited artists and merchants?

 

[ilduce349]

Good news, I build the terra cotta army in 209 BC in Xi'an. (It was historically completed in 209 BC in Xi'an)

Edit: This time I was a little less aggressive with settlers, at this point in the game I only have 4 cities, last time I was playing I had 13.

 

[Linkman226]

Heh, just "a little"

 

[civ_king]

Where did you get that statistic?

According to Angus Madison, in the year 1600 (with Britain starting to colonize India in 1612) was 23% of the worlds GDP.

100 years later, it was 24% of the world.

120 years later, it was 16%.

50 years later it was 12%. Now lets disect that number. Over the 270 years listed, India's GDP doubled, but the worlds GDP quadrupled. That was of no fault of the British.

Lets look at America over the past 50 years:
http://www.google.ca/publicdata/exp...untry:USA&ifdim=country&tdim=true&hl=en&dl=en

In 1960, America had 40% of the worlds GDP.
In 2010, It had 24%. In other words by your logic, Americans were better off in the 60s then today. NOT THE CASE! India's GDP doubled under British Rule (granted its population also doubled), it was not Britain's fault that America's went up 100 fold over the same time period.

An estimate by Cambridge University historian Angus Maddison reveals that India's share of the world income fell from 22.6% in 1700, comparable to Europe's share of 23.3%, to a low of 3.8% in 1952

Britain didn't have much control until fairly late, the Maratha for example peaked in 1760

sorry 3.8%, I do think we can agree that an ~83% decline is rather catastrophic

It absolutely was the bastard British fault, they were guilty of gross negligence and extreme avarice. They turned India from a manufacturer of fine goods to a back water place controlled for raw materials, that is absolutely Britain's fault. Also the massive famines that occurred killing tens of millions was Britain's fault because the problem wasn't lack of food, but because Britain wrung every last dam out of the peasants so they couldn't buy food and of course there was the British forcing people to grow cash crops instead of food.

 

[Leoreth]

I do, but that's me. What I really want to see, still, is a Chinese respawn sometime around 1500. I don't know if it's been implemented yet, I haven't updated for a few days, because I want to finish a few games.

One of my latest commits enabled the resurrection mechanic for China between 1300 and 1700 without Nationalism. The usual rules still apply, i.e. they only respawn over independents or an unstable Mongolia.

Sreni sounds good- unlimited artists and merchants?

This is usually overpowered without payoff. I'd rather increase the effectivity of their specialists rather than their number.

 

[Leoreth]

So having played my first game as the Indonesians (till the late 18th century) I have some notes:

I missed the first goal by quite a long way. In 1300ad, Japan of all civs had the highest population with a very large city in the Phillipines, and a size 15 Kyoto. On top of this many of their cities seemed too large. I need to have another go, but for me the aim seemed unobtainable, as also India and Arabia had very large populations. It might be worth giving Indonesian cities a free harbour, which would make the eastern parts of the archipellago more desirable, at the moment these are almost worthless because a harbour takes 50-odd turns to build, and also allow faster population growth.

If you didn't even built harbors it's no wonder you didn't make that goal. The key for Indonesia is, counterintuitively, Serfdom. You need to whip food, health and happiness buildings as soon as the first angry face shows up, and your cities can easily grow to 15. I've still observed that it's fairly close so maybe it's a little luck dependent, but in my three test games I wound up on top in the end.

The second goal was very fun in that I could only really control about 5 luxuries of my own. China had collapsed and Japan/Khmer/Korea didnt have anything to trade so I had to buy all the rest from India. In order to do this I had to reduce my science to 0% and give them literally all my gold (32pt for Ivory!). After 1500 I was very much behind in tech, and some of my units had been disbanded due to bankruptcy/plague. Then Khmer conquered my city in I think the location of Singapore.

Yes, the Khmer can really ruin one's game. It's usually a good idea to gift them techs to get them on friendly. Arabia and Turkey are also good choices for trade (cotton, incense, wine). Settling New Guinea early on also helps to get resources to trade.

If the Dutch had arrived at this point it would have been chaos, but sadly they still haven't arrived and it is now almost 1800ad. In fact there's been hardly any colonisation at all, and only the French have any pressence in Asia (Shanghai). Another thing which never arrived is Islam, which has spread to Mexico City but not to anywhere in South East Asia.

I'll do a scripted Islam spread for them.

I've never played with Dutch conquerors either, although I've observed that you can usually hire quite a lot mercenaries as Indonesia. It might still completely mess up the third goal.

Finally I think their UU and UB are pretty useless and don't really help with achieve their goals at all, and Indonesia could maybe use a rice somwhere, as the resource is totally absent from the entire area.

True. I thought about changing the UB to replace Pagan Temple and give some raw production. The UU should get extra strength against gunpowder unit so you have something to defend against the conquerors.

Also when they respawned Persia had a -32 diplo penalty for having the wrong religion. Is it meant to be so high?!

Definitely not.

 

[Linkman226]

Britain didn't have much control until fairly late, the Maratha for example peaked in 1760

sorry 3.8%, I do think we can agree that an ~83% decline is rather catastrophic

It absolutely was the bastard British fault, they were guilty of gross negligence and extreme avarice. They turned India from a manufacturer of fine goods to a back water place controlled for raw materials, that is absolutely Britain's fault. Also the massive famines that occurred killing tens of millions was Britain's fault because the problem wasn't lack of food, but because Britain wrung every last dam out of the peasants so they couldn't buy food and of course there was the British forcing people to grow cash crops instead of food.

On the plus side they stopped things like sati. Are you Indian, civ_king? I smell nationalism here

One of my latest commits enabled the resurrection mechanic for China between 1300 and 1700 without Nationalism. The usual rules still apply, i.e. they only respawn over independents or an unstable Mongolia.


This is usually overpowered without payoff. I'd rather increase the effectivity of their specialists rather than their number.

Oh ya. After what we saw with Italy.

 

[Ekolite]

Hey Leoreth, I did build harbours in my cities (obviously ) but there are a whole bunch of tiny islands in the east that I wanted to settle but decided I couldn't because it would take forever to build harbours there with no production and until they had one they'd be worthless to me.

I tried another game this time starting in 600ad and found it much easier. I think because civs like Japan didn't have such a head start over me, and India wasn't there so I could settle the subcontinent for Ivory and Incense.

Using a slightly different formation of cities, inc. one in the Phillipines, and one in southern Australia for the silver, I managed to secure all the resources myself without having to import. Not sure if this is good or bad.

Also I've always found that the Turks and Arabs weren't willing to trade with me, although if I'd been able to convert to Islam they probably would.

I think Indonesia's stability tends to be too high. I'd settled the Phillipines, India (2 cities) and Australia and still I was very stable or stable throughout the whole game.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, 600 AD is really much easier.

Agree about the stability.

 

[Cosmos1985]

Before reading the latest pages, amongst other things including a discussion of how playing on marathon changes the game, I decied to run an American start on Marathon, to see how the game would unfold untill the US Spawn. This is just one test start, so it's mostly "for fun", and not meant to mean anything specific, but anyways, for those interested, this it what the world looks like:

* Collapsed China, Korea, Mongolia, and Russia. Russia west of the Urals split between Vikings and Turkey And one french city and two indies.
All in all, weirdest looking Turkey I've ever seen, holding just one city in present-day Turkey, rest in Russia and Eastern Europe. Byzantium/Istanbul razed.
* Napoleonic Europe!
* The Dutch holds 4 cities: 3 in Australia, plus its capital, which isn't Amsterdam, who doesn't exist.... but a city located in Finland, even build by the dutch themselves. Wonder how THAT happened
* The English has 8 cities in NA, Vikings one in Canada also. Apart from that, Spanish Tampa and Aztecs as vassals, looking quite okay. Spanish quite historical expansion, although no France in NA, just SA, where they conqured the Portuguese colonies. No Portugal or NL at all.
* Madrid holy city for both Cath. and Prot. - Spain converted to Prot. (you get increased chance for converting, if you found it?) along with France and England amongst others, so Protestantism dominating.
* Rome Muslim and Buddhist And the AI actually managed to build a pasture on the corsican sheep
* Quite strong India and Arabia
(* Aarhus )
* And weirdest things of all: Italy having Moyale as its capital, and holding 5 cities in Eastern and Southern Africa - guess they got kicked out of Italy Proper by the French

Some general things, not related to this game: Why is the sheep near Samarqand just out of its reach? Is that on purpose? Also, very minor thing, but Vikings keeps on settling Husavik instead of Reykjavik, if you have the time, would be nice to stop them from doing that. More importantly, are you planning on making changes to the 3000BC arabian flip thing? As of now it makes Egypt and Persia.. a challenge, to say the least
Aztecs really need to stop building Coyuca, it takes the sheep away from their capital, and its a crappy spot, especially since they also like to build a city just to the n/nw of it.

Sounds really nice with some Caste System-inspired UP/UB/whatever for India, would bring some good flavour and also make a lot of sense.

I don't know if this would be too much of a change this late in the process, but I would like to bring up once again the idea of religions being allowed to spread to a city already with a religion - for non-theo civs only of course. With a lower chance of spreading of course, but there is really no reason why there can't be both Catholics and Protestants in American cities, or both Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists in Indonesian cities, etc. It would require some tweaking of the spread rates etc., but I think it would be all worth it.

Also, Arabia can really get a LOT of gold (and food, pr. city-wise) from the Silk Route corp, if it's strong - quite a lot of incense to get for them especially. I guess it's historical enough for them to benefit a lot from it, but it seems OP atm to me, at least in the hands of a human player.

Re: "My idea is: The Power of Entente: you can have up to 5 defensive pacts and other civs are more likely to sign a defensive pact with you."
- I think it comes to late, and is too weak.

Lastly, is it possible to have shorter/no city resistance, according to whether the city is in a core or historical area of the conquering civ? Especially it makes sense to me that you should never get resistance from taking a city in your core area, and given that the stability system implies some cities populations likes being governed by certain civs compared to others, wouldn't it make sense if the resistance period then would be shorter?

 

[Opera]

I too started a 3000BC America game "just to see". I ended up playing it however. It always turns out this way.

- No colony in North America, no English, no French, nobody but the Aztecs. Good for me
- Greek Empire in 1780! They had all of Turkey and big swaths of the Middle East. They didn't last and ended collapsing but still, impressive!
- India was a superpower and wasn't bothered by the English. I played till 1960 or so and they're second, me being first. They built Wembley and the UN (at least, maybe more).
- Most of the world was either muslim or bhuddist, including Europe. Protestantism was founded way later: when the Aztecs, one of the only catholic civilizations, got to Printing Press Later on with the UN, everyone was forced to Secularism.
- I think the offensive force Europeans gain with the trading company mechanic isn't good enough as their was no european presence in Asia.
- Russia had been killed on my spawn. Later on, Germany and Italy bit the dust as well. China is divided between Mongolia, Korea and Japan.
- The Inca were still well alive, with Spain around having its regular colonies everywhere in South America but in Brazil, which was Portuguese. Netherlands had been killed off and had no colony.

It seems the "conqueror" events for the Aztecs, Inca and the "trading companies" events for the European really aren't up to the task. Could this be related to the plague, at least for the New World civs, not killing units anymore?

In any case I got what I wanted: a great deal of alt-history

 

[IrishDragon]

I did the same, 3000BC start as America, China was a power, holding Korea, the Mongols didn't really do anything to them. Instead the Mongols took some cities in Persia, and two Arabian cities on the tip of the peninsula, Sana and one other, in around 1210-1220. India was strong, with only one independent city on it's southern tip, no Europeans, and had the Khmer as vassals. I also noticed they flipped Lasa, probably because of their new capital. Holland were the only colonials in Asia, holding Indonesia and an Australian city. England and France had North American colonies, Portugal was dead, and Spain some South American cities.

 

[civ_king]

On the plus side they stopped things like sati. Are you Indian, civ_king? I smell nationalism here



Oh ya. After what we saw with Italy.

My family is from Goa, the Portuguese who arrived in 1510 banned sati in 1515. I was born in San Francisco. I also don't have anything in particular against the British, I in fact possess Canadian citizenship.

Look, if the British didn't invade there is a very serious chance that India could have become a very powerful country (via the Maratha Empire) considering it's wealth, if India industrialized it could have become a superpower. India would have done considerably better considering the Maratha would have given a dam (more like a pretty pile of mohurs) because it is their country. I also really want a scenario in which India controls Bangladesh and Pakistan too!

The British basically turned India into the equivalent of the American South (minus the gross over representation in parliament well actually minus representation in parliament at all really). They turned a wealthy country into a backwater, for that I resent them.

 

[Cosmos1985]

Another very minor thing: In the start menu, where you select civs, one of the greek UHV tells you to control "Egpyt"

 

[kaltruhe]

I just found that there is 'Hwang Woo-Suk' in the list of Korean Dynamic Great Person Names. In Korea, Woo-Suk Hwang is considered as a con man. He manipulated his scientific results and all his deceits were revealed. So, could you please exchange him by Lee Whi-soh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_W._Lee ) ? He is one of the great Korean physicist.