Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[JiimBV]

Wrong thread. Again. I should check before I post things.

 

[Gatsby]

No, sorry, I was lazy and thought it didn't matter in the days of widespread fast internet access. Mea culpa

Don't get me wrong, it downloads pretty quick (less than 5 mins for me). But it seems like updates are happening fairly often and I'm just thinking about monthly download limits. Enjoying this modmod though

PS I was playing 1.7 as Rome yesterday on Epic speed, and the game kept crashing around turn 200. It seems to have something to do with autosaving and/or completing the Great Lighthouse (which I was about to complete in my capital about turn 200). However I had already played a similar game as Rome before up to the 19th century AD (i.e. without constant crashing). Is this bug known, and if so has it been fixed in 1.71?

PPS Has the permanent instability due to transition to democracy been fixed in 1.71? In 1.7 democratic transition instability still happens even when I switch from Republic/Monarchy + Representation to Parliamentarianism.

PPPS When playing as Rome I tend to end up with a terrible Civics stability rating (like -50) by the modern era, despite the fact that I make a point of running sensible civics combos (e.g. republic + free market + secularism). Would this bad civics rating be due mainly to the permanent stability hit from no. of turns spent in anarchy throughout the game, or does the game's pre-programmed stability bias against Rome in the late game also manifest in the civics rating?

Thanks

 

[Leoreth]

So is there anything specific u need feedback on? (wat can i help u with)

Before i told u some ideas on Byzantine and Arabs but wat are u focusing on now?

Currently I want to see if the Turks still perform historically. Byzantium seems to collapse almost certainly until 1500 AD, but their European empire often ends up in the hands of European powers it seems.

Italy might need another playtesting as well now that the UP has changed. I also need some feedback on how far you're going to make it until the middle of the 16th century in being the richest / most cultured / most advanced civ (planning on modifying the UHV).

Don't get me wrong, it downloads pretty quick (less than 5 mins for me). But it seems like updates are happening fairly often and I'm just thinking about monthly download limits. Enjoying this modmod though

Okay, you're right, I'll make a lightweight patch for the next minor release.

PS I was playing 1.7 as Rome yesterday on Epic speed, and the game kept crashing around turn 200. It seems to have something to do with autosaving and/or completing the Great Lighthouse (which I was about to complete in my capital about turn 200). However I had already played a similar game as Rome before up to the 19th century AD (i.e. without constant crashing). Is this bug known, and if so has it been fixed in 1.71?

It seems that this is somehow related to the new Roman UP, maybe even with the conquest of Carthage. Unfortunately I haven't been able to reproduce the error and am still waiting for the forum can get fixed so people can upload their respective saves.

PPS Has the permanent instability due to transition to democracy been fixed in 1.71? In 1.7 democratic transition instability still happens even when I switch from Republic/Monarchy + Representation to Parliamentarianism.

Not yet, this is where I'll look into next.

PPPS When playing as Rome I tend to end up with a terrible Civics stability rating (like -50) by the modern era, despite the fact that I make a point of running sensible civics combos (e.g. republic + free market + secularism). Would this bad civics rating be due mainly to the permanent stability hit from no. of turns spent in anarchy throughout the game, or does the game's pre-programmed stability bias against Rome in the late game also manifest in the civics rating?

-50 is really quite a lot. Anarchy penalties get displayed there, yes, and if you've been hit by the democracy transition bug it's no wonder it's that bad. There's no additional penalty against a player-controlled Rome though.

 

[Taijian]

...atm is the unconditional spawn of Byzantium.

I don't know if this is already on your agenda or not, but it really ruined my Greece game yesterday. Is it possible and planned to make them only spawn when Greece is not controlling Byzantium and/or doesn't exist anymore? Because in my game Rome had just declared on me, I was doing fine in defence when suddenly all of my cities (save Athens) decided to flip to (the new) Rome.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, definitely. I'll include it as soon as possible into 1.72.

Edit: Fixing Russia's treatment of Kiev helped a lot. Russia and Germany now usually looks like this in most games:

 

[Leoreth]

Byzantium now only spawns when one of these conditions is fulfilled:
1) the player is Byzantium
2) Greece is collapsed
3) Rome controls at least one city in Greece's core

Also, I've modified the Italy respawn so that it only triggers when at least half of the Italian cities are still independent. Currently I'm also working on balancing Italy's military more. Look at this screen:

They are often so powerful because many German or French units flip to them on spawn.

 

[AdrienIer]

Leoreth, could you update your "plans for next update" spoiler on the first page ? And your first screenshot is amazing, it's exactly what we can reasonably expect regarding historical accuracy and balanced game.

 

[Sikandar]

The Byzantines should really only spawn in 330 if the Romans have expanded their empire to its historical borders and upkeep, unhappiness, or stability (whichever makes the most sense) has reached a certain level. Constantinopolis was built because Rome was no longer seen as a desirable capital due to the decline of economic profitability in the western Mediterranean and Rome's great distance from the vulnerable borders of the empire.

But I suppose that's a little overly complex.

 

[Leoreth]

Leoreth, could you update your "plans for next update" spoiler on the first page ? And your first screenshot is amazing, it's exactly what we can reasonably expect regarding historical accuracy and balanced game.

That changes so quickly these days that these texts can't keep up anyway. But I'll try to synch it up with 1.7 at least.

The Byzantines should really only spawn in 330 if the Romans have expanded their empire to its historical borders and upkeep, unhappiness, or stability (whichever makes the most sense) has reached a certain level. Constantinopolis was built because Rome was no longer seen as a desirable capital due to the decline of economic profitability in the western Mediterranean and Rome's great distance from the vulnerable borders of the empire.

But I suppose that's a little overly complex.

I know, but you gave my reasoning yourself. It's also possible that the Byzantium we see here doesn't have to be the Byzantium we know of history - maybe it arised from an usurper emperor in one of the empire's halves etc.

 

[Sikandar]

I know, but you gave my reasoning yourself. It's also possible that the Byzantium we see here doesn't have to be the Byzantium we know of history - maybe it arised from an usurper emperor in one of the empire's halves etc.

True. I also forgot that America spawns regardless of European settlement of North America. I just dislike historical determinism in games. That was the rationale for my post.

 

[Gatsby]

Okay, you're right, I'll make a lightweight patch for the next minor release..

Thank you

It seems that this is somehow related to the new Roman UP, maybe even with the conquest of Carthage. Unfortunately I haven't been able to reproduce the error and am still waiting for the forum can get fixed so people can upload their respective saves.

Now that you mention it, I had conquered Carthage sometime just prior to turn 200. I'll give 1.71 a try with Rome and see if that solves the issue.

Not yet, this is where I'll look into next.

Cheers

-50 is really quite a lot. Anarchy penalties get displayed there, yes, and if you've been hit by the democracy transition bug it's no wonder it's that bad. There's no additional penalty against a player-controlled Rome though.

Okay, but I still get pretty bad civics stability by the end game even without democratic transition. I think it might be because I change civics too often throughout the game. But I'm confused as to why my civics stability rating always seems to be negative even when I use sensible civics combos and keep civics changes to a minimum.

 

[Lord Ainsbirth]

hello Leoreth,
I tried to upload the save game, but I couldn't... Anyway, I realized that the crash happens not when Carthage city is taken, but when Carthage Civ collapses.
Viel Glück, Herr Leoreth!

 

[J. pride]

Just a few comments and questions?

1) Are the changes for the Arabs due for next release or later?
( Changes i am talking: moving the stone from Tisfun, Taking the sheep from Mecca and adding it to Baghdad, Spawning most of the Arab units in the flipped cities, changing Arab capital to Cairo or Baghdad on flip (maybe a 50% chance each to make the game more interesting).

If u have changed ur mind or are not making any of these changes plz do update on wat u want to do?

2) Ok so i understand ur point on allowing the Byzantines to settle in Crimea and Caucasus (so the game is not too deterministic). But the Byzantines settle Crimea 80% of the time and Caucasus 60% of the time. But I have yet to see a game where the Byzies settled Naples or any other southern Italian city? Can't Naples just be preplaced to the Byzies. I mean its really hard for an AI to cross the sea to found a city not in its core area. If u dont want to preplace it can u make sure that Naples is atleast 70-80% of the time founded by the Byzies. (also plz lower their settlement rate of Crimea)

3) Im just a little confused about Krakow/Warsaw. You said that it would be bad( for Germans)but it looked like u still wanted it to spawn . Also wouldnt making Venice and Rome into one indie solve the problem. What are ur planes about that area?

4) Any update on the minor Civ?

5) Is it possible to push back the italian spawn or give them a settler in northern Italy so they settle milan or Florence and then have to conquer Italy themselves.

6) I'm not a programmer but some of the stuff they are doing at Project Synthesis might help DOC. They are already working on Iranian and Mughal/India respawns. Plus some of the resources that they are adding might be good for Doa too (not all but some). I mean they are basing their whole project on Doc . It would save u some time if u take some of their things ( if its possible and easier just to transfer). A collaboration with Synthesis (with things that u both plan on doing) would be even better

 

[Gatsby]

I'm also interested to know if/how the permanent stability hit from anarchy is adjusted for different game speeds. I notice that in epic-speed games, each civic change causes an additional turn of anarchy, but in normal-speed games you can (presumably) change more than one civic at a time with only one turn of anarchy. Is the permanent anarchy stability hit due to (a) turns spent in anarchy or (b) the number of civics changes? If the answer is (a) , have you reduced the size of the permanent anarchy stability hit for epic and marathon games? If the stability hit has not been scaled appropriately, then epic- and marathon-speed games are punishing players more harshly for switching civics than normal-speed games on the same difficulty level.

 

[Linkman226]

Indeed, my base was DoC. The majority of features or from there, and as I've said before, this is the best currently extant RFC modmod.

Rebirths won't be implemented for at least another month on account of the fact that:
1) There are higher priorities
2) It's time intensive

 

[jammerculture]

hello Leoreth,
I tried to upload the save game, but I couldn't... Anyway, I realized that the crash happens not when Carthage city is taken, but when Carthage Civ collapses.
Viel Glück, Herr Leoreth!

awesome sleuthing! Hopefully this helps Leoreth fix the problem.

 

[Leoreth]

hello Leoreth,
I tried to upload the save game, but I couldn't... Anyway, I realized that the crash happens not when Carthage city is taken, but when Carthage Civ collapses.
Viel Glück, Herr Leoreth!

Awesome. I hope the forum uploads get fixed soon, so that I can have a look at it.

1) Are the changes for the Arabs due for next release or later?
( Changes i am talking: moving the stone from Tisfun, Taking the sheep from Mecca and adding it to Baghdad, Spawning most of the Arab units in the flipped cities, changing Arab capital to Cairo or Baghdad on flip (maybe a 50% chance each to make the game more interesting).

All of the changes will be in 1.72, I won't move the stone though. Capital change / Arabian unit spawn is even already implemented just like you describe it.

2) Ok so i understand ur point on allowing the Byzantines to settle in Crimea and Caucasus (so the game is not too deterministic). But the Byzantines settle Crimea 80% of the time and Caucasus 60% of the time. But I have yet to see a game where the Byzies settled Naples or any other southern Italian city? Can't Naples just be preplaced to the Byzies. I mean its really hard for an AI to cross the sea to found a city not in its core area. If u dont want to preplace it can u make sure that Naples is atleast 70-80% of the time founded by the Byzies. (also plz lower their settlement rate of Crimea)

I've come to like Chersonesos because it positively influences Russian city placement (who are not supposed to settle there). The area was historically controlled by various factions that would fall under "barbarians" in Civ, so Byzantine presence is what comes closest to history there.

I agree on southern Italy though. My primary reason for not placing Naples is that Byzantium starts with enough cities already, so I might have to take away Hesperides and Tripolis to make up for it ...

3) Im just a little confused about Krakow/Warsaw. You said that it would be bad( for Germans)but it looked like u still wanted it to spawn . Also wouldnt making Venice and Rome into one indie solve the problem. What are ur planes about that area?

4) Any update on the minor Civ?

Nothing concrete about the whole issue, I won't tackle it soon.

5) Is it possible to push back the italian spawn or give them a settler in northern Italy so they settle milan or Florence and then have to conquer Italy themselves.

I'm currently working on having them actually settle Florence (they already spawn with a settler, but move it to Southern Italy). The flip has to stay for playability though.

6) I'm not a programmer but some of the stuff they are doing at Project Synthesis might help DOC. They are already working on Iranian and Mughal/India respawns. Plus some of the resources that they are adding might be good for Doa too (not all but some). I mean they are basing their whole project on Doc . It would save u some time if u take some of their things ( if its possible and easier just to transfer). A collaboration with Synthesis (with things that u both plan on doing) would be even better

Well, I'll have to wait until there's something actually implemented in Synthesis. And it has to fit with my idea on the modmod of course.

I'm also interested to know if/how the permanent stability hit from anarchy is adjusted for different game speeds. I notice that in epic-speed games, each civic change causes an additional turn of anarchy, but in normal-speed games you can (presumably) change more than one civic at a time with only one turn of anarchy. Is the permanent anarchy stability hit due to (a) turns spent in anarchy or (b) the number of civics changes? If the answer is (a) , have you reduced the size of the permanent anarchy stability hit for epic and marathon games? If the stability hit has not been scaled appropriately, then epic- and marathon-speed games are punishing players more harshly for switching civics than normal-speed games on the same difficulty level.

That's actually a very good point. To be honest, I don't know how it's handled, because edead implemented everything related to the new game speeds. In general he was very circumspect in these things, but it may have eluded him. I'll have a look into the code.

 

[AOS9001]

I've come to like Chersonesos because it positively influences Russian city placement (who are not supposed to settle there). The area was historically controlled by various factions that would fall under "barbarians" in Civ, so Byzantine presence is what comes closest to history there.

I agree on southern Italy though. My primary reason for not placing Naples is that Byzantium starts with enough cities already, so I might have to take away Hesperides and Tripolis to make up for it ...

I agree on that first point. As for Hesperides, it's a useless city, it can afford to be lost. Put Neapolis in it's stead, and then you'll have something better. Tripolis is a good spot and still important-ish, so I'd advise it stay to represent the ERE's presence in North Africa.

I haven't posted in forever, but I have been keeping an eye on things here.

 

[Linkman226]

Will the flood plains fix be in v 1.72?

EDIT: Oh and what does the following SVN error eman?

Command: Checkout from https://www.assembla.com/code/Dawn_of_Civilization/subversion/nodes, revision HEAD, Fully recursive, Externals included  
Error: Server sent unexpected return value (405 Not Allowed) in response to OPTIONS   
Error: request for 'https://www.assembla.com/code/Dawn_of_Civilization/subversion/nodes'  
Finished!:

 

[J. pride]

I don't think Byzantines having too many cities should be a problem especially since u tweaked the Arabs; But if a city must go then it should probably be Benghazi.On the same note, can there be an independent or Byzantine Tunis until work on the Minor Civ starts